Discussion of IRL and safety - Page 4

**bjohnsonsmith** · 27 Oct 2011, 23:15 (Ref:2977965)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Ashmore lectured on the phone for an hour one day, much of which concerned his insistence that high downforce from ground effects was the way to go for the new formula. Guess not.

My guess was that flat bottom cars with relaxed regulations on selective downforce would prevent flat-out lapping and further create speed differential at various points on the track due to the variation in drag levels. That was two years ago.

Mike Cannon has it right. Nobody gives a crap about what they are doing. Until the lack of foresight highlights the stupidity of the entire exercise, that is.

Ashmore would argue for ground effects, considering his involvement with car design at Lola and Reynard and he was very successful, as were the cars.

fasteric · 28 Oct 2011, 23:03 (Ref:2978403)

I'm a racer too..where you so outraged that Zanardi got his legs chopped off on a race CART should never had run ..of greg moore got killed because of lousey track prep? did you care about cart fences when jeff krosnoff and a marshall was killed in toronto..its a very slimey thing to grandstand on a drivers death

fasteric · 28 Oct 2011, 23:44 (Ref:2978410)

sorry ..that was for MS who thinks all is lousey with Indy Car all was great with CART..its a tough sport . we as racers know it a very dangerous sport..alot of safety is the cars..our own hans devices..crush zones in the cras..wheel tethers .you can have soft walls. etc.but the best thing is on site medical guys that can save a driver from bleeding and stabilize a driver until a trip to the hospipal..most deaths nowadays are impact injuries with no hope..in the past alot of deaths were because of poor onsite EMT medical
help

**bjohnsonsmith** · 29 Oct 2011, 00:11 (Ref:2978417)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasteric

I'm a racer too..where you so outraged that Zanardi got his legs chopped off on a race CART should never had run ..of greg moore got killed because of lousey track prep? did you care about cart fences when jeff krosnoff and a marshall was killed in toronto..its a very slimey thing to grandstand on a drivers death

I don't believe there's any intention of grandstanding any driver's death. As I see it the IRL/IndyCar facilitated the situation in the first place and any grandstanding is the reaction to this tragic event.

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 00:23 (Ref:2978420)

sorry..my point was to say that to blame the current Indycar series honchos because you dont agree with a series derection ..or have a useless gruge aka cart vs irl has nothing to do with safety..like i said Cart killed and injured alot of drivers ..do we have have to use facts.? ok paul dana and alot of back injuries because of the low standard in the panoz chassis ..that later built the champ cars

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 00:25 (Ref:2978423)

and as far as ashmore..did he know he would knock off legs and ankles from his previous designs?

**bjohnsonsmith** · 29 Oct 2011, 00:29 (Ref:2978425)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasteric

sorry..my point was to say that to blame the current Indycar series honchos because you dont agree with a series derection ..or have a useless gruge aka cart vs irl has nothing to do with safety..like i said Cart killed and injured alot of drivers ..do we have have to use facts.? ok paul dana and alot of back injuries because of the low standard in the panoz chassis ..that later built the champ cars

I understand what you are saying but I belive some people, including my self, are questioning why Dallara did nothing to rectify a flaw in their car's design and which was ignored.

I don't know if you follow F1 but both Colin Chapman and Frank Williams were both subject to manslaughter charges, regarding the deaths of Rhindt and Senna respectively; that's Italian law regarding a fatality in a race.

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 01:29 (Ref:2978434)

both cases the italian track medial crews were to blame for the deaths of rindt and senna..these were common place crashes...the problem like i said were not good medical on scene emts..senna got hit in the head by a suspension piece..its open wheel and with the lower cockpit it can happen..not sure if medical could have helped but ...the colin deal with rindt ,,well he should have never died..he cut his legs and with proper emt care..never perished..the lack of proper italian medical help is part of both situations and they cover it up with politicsd..luckly kubica had good doctors to save his ass..he would have died in the old ways

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 01:34 (Ref:2978435)

as far as car designers..colin chapman was know to use light wieght stuff..more drivers died in his cars than most.

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 01:36 (Ref:2978436)

if it breaks before the checkered flag we lose..if it breaks after we win!

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 01:53 (Ref:2978437)

oh..and ronnie peterson..a complete outrage for medical help..and mark donohue..looked like a broken leg ...died later..

2112 · 29 Oct 2011, 02:22 (Ref:2978438)

The shift in history..the split...the shift in the type of cars...in the fast oval tracks...yeah...I see a pattern.

But the elephant is blocking my view

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 02:22 (Ref:2978439)

While very innovative, Chapman also came under criticism for the structural fragility of his designs. The number of top drivers seriously injured or killed in Lotus machinery was considerable – notably Stirling Moss, Alan Stacey, Mike Taylor, Jim Clark, Mike Spence, Bobby Marshman, Graham Hill, Jochen Rindt and Ronnie Peterson. In Dave Friedman's book "Indianapolis Memories 1961–1969", Dan Gurney is quoted as saying, "Did I think the Lotus way of doing things was good? No. We had several structural failures in those cars [Indianapolis Lotus 34 and 38]. But at the time, I felt it was the price you paid for getting something significantly better

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 02:32 (Ref:2978440)

designers will always make a car fast..and find a driver to drive it..its motor racing..nothing new..to say ok a driver dies and many more will, but more improtant is what we want motorsports to be about..do we want danger?..do we want noise and extreme speed? a party? hard ass competion? or dumbing down to something thats safe and sella clothes?

Carsandmotorracing · 29 Oct 2011, 02:36 (Ref:2978441)

Bobby Unser is a god!

Purist · 29 Oct 2011, 03:28 (Ref:2978448)

I'm pretty damn sure that Rindt met the same fate at Helmut Koinigg (the car went under the guardrial, while the driver's head did not.

As for Senna, it was helmet intrusion by a suspension member, so I don't know what the doctors could have done there either.

Ronnie Peterson was in hospital. It sounds like an embolism on one of the arteries in his leg burst, and that was that.

Mark Donohue had a brain hemerage; that's something doctors often can't do anything about even today. It's certain death if the doctors can't find it before things really get going.

Colin Chapman's designs were lightweight, but those spaceframe and monocoque chasses had three times (or more) the rigidity of the more conventional structures the other guys were using at the time. It's just that, even at that, it was nothing compared to the rigidity we can achieve now. Carrying 75 gallons on-board the cars didn't exactly help either back in the '70s and before.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 29 Oct 2011, 03:39 (Ref:2978452)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

Bobby Unser is a god!

That's debateble.

Purist · 29 Oct 2011, 03:43 (Ref:2978453)

And that race in '81 had a lot more craziness and worry than just the stuff that happened under the safety car. In less than 15 minutes, you had the video of the "illegal" passes, Tom Sneva stalled, Rick Mears' pit fire, and capped it off with Danny Ongais' very nasty crash in the Interscope Indy Car.

Carsandmotorracing · 29 Oct 2011, 05:24 (Ref:2978466)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's debateble.

Isin't everything?

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 05:56 (Ref:2978470)

sorry purist..nobody dies cause your leg is bleeding..mark had a headache and didnt get medical help..every hospital ,doctor knows these things..swelling of the brain..etc..nobody dies from them if there is proper care. senna and dan got hit on the head hard ..its awlfull but racing injuries are that. the most imprtant EMT is to stabilize the guy on the scene and as far as rindt and peterson ..they failed .

fasteric · 29 Oct 2011, 06:07 (Ref:2978472)

my point earlier was all these great designers of race cars are maybe interested in the safety of drivers but ...they want to win and drivers are just that drivers..another one will come along..even the now great Newey..ask Kimi how many suspension failures he had while racing for Mclaren..

**bjohnsonsmith** · 29 Oct 2011, 06:34 (Ref:2978479)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

Isin't everything?

Indeed.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 29 Oct 2011, 06:45 (Ref:2978482)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasteric

designers will always make a car fast..and find a driver to drive it..its motor racing..nothing new..to say ok a driver dies and many more will, but more improtant is what we want motorsports to be about..do we want danger?..do we want noise and extreme speed? a party? hard ass competion? or dumbing down to something thats safe and sella clothes?

It would seem the IRL/IndyCar didn't think any of this through before Las Vegas and now everyone's left with the awful aftermath.

Purist · 29 Oct 2011, 16:36 (Ref:2978637)

Fasteric, you can bleed out plenty quickly if your Femural Artery ruptures. So, I'm not sure the doctors could act fast enough with Peterson, especially if they didn't have ready access to the rupture at the time it occurred.

And I still don't see how there was anything the doctors could have done for Rindt.

Also, you're applying today's medical knowledge to accidents that happened more than 30 years ago. Guess what, that knowledge and those techniques simply didn't exist back then. Today's regimen for dealing with brain swelling wasn't solidified and spread around the medical community until roughly 15 years ago.

And even now, if the person thinks he or she is fine, then they have no apparent reason to seek added medical attention. Look at what happened to Liam Neeson's wife just a few years ago.

It's also the same reason we have problems with diseases flaring back up and more viruses and bacteria becoming more drug resistant. People think they've gotten better, because they feel better, and so they stop the course of their medication prematurely. You can't stop human beings from being just that, and you can't fundamentally change that system of motivation, so this problem of "feeling fine", and thus doing nothing, will always persist to some extent.

mountainstar · 29 Oct 2011, 21:40 (Ref:2978703)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purist

Fasteric, you can bleed out plenty quickly if your Femural Artery ruptures. So, I'm not sure the doctors could act fast enough with Peterson, especially if they didn't have ready access to the rupture at the time it occurred.

And I still don't see how there was anything the doctors could have done for Rindt.

Also, you're applying today's medical knowledge to accidents that happened more than 30 years ago. Guess what, that knowledge and those techniques simply didn't exist back then. Today's regimen for dealing with brain swelling wasn't solidified and spread around the medical community until roughly 15 years ago.

And even now, if the person thinks he or she is fine, then they have no apparent reason to seek added medical attention. Look at what happened to Liam Neeson's wife just a few years ago.

It's also the same reason we have problems with diseases flaring back up and more viruses and bacteria becoming more drug resistant. People think they've gotten better, because they feel better, and so they stop the course of their medication prematurely. You can't stop human beings from being just that, and you can't fundamentally change that system of motivation, so this problem of "feeling fine", and thus doing nothing, will always persist to some extent.

Peterson died from a bone marrow embolism from a poorly treated and managed broken leg.

From all research I have done in years past about the Rindt accident, he died almost instantly. He refused to use crotch straps and submarined under the harness which cut his throat.

Mark Donohue hit his head on a catch fencing post and insisted he was fine before collapsing later from a brain hemorrhage.

While they kept Senna technically alive, he was brain dead almost instantly.

Zanardi's accident resulted in monocoques being strengthened from side impacts.

Most of fasterics many rambling posts were factually inaccurate.

As I have said many times before, it is impossible to make open wheel formula racing "completely safe". Look at what happened to Da Matta for instance, hitting a deer at Road America. What is important is to learn from incidents to improve safety technology on the cars, the tracks and for the driver and medical and marshalling procedures at the track.

Problem with the irl is they for a long time had an issue for years with cars that took flight causing some horrific crashes and they did squat. Not to mention a laughable race control and standardized rule enforcement and a bumbling "safety team" which is likely to cause more harm to a driver than otherwise. And you had the irl ignoring tracks like las vegas regarding grid sizes. Plus you had their rules which meant you had drivers with their foot flat to the floor 100% of the time running in dense packs.

From what I could see tons of crap and flames went beyond the cheesegrater fences at las vegas and next go around in the wrong place, we could end up with 20, 50, 100 people killed and when that happens, it is the end of motorsport as you know it in the USA.

As Bruce Ashmore said this new car doesn't really fix much and I think it is merely reloading the gun.

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