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Old 25 May 2011, 21:27 (Ref:2885891)   #1
hondafan37
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hondafan37 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridhondafan37 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
V8 and turbo engines allowed for 2013?

http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/05/23/v8...owed-for-2013/

I like this concept. Would be like back in the late 70's and early 80. Would have again difference sounds of the engines and of course the battle aspirated vs turbo.
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Old 25 May 2011, 23:41 (Ref:2885927)   #2
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i too like the theory of it, in a 1980s nostalgic sense, where there will be more variation in the engine tones, power bands and therefore performance.

However, i get the feeling in modern reality, it will have to be over-regulated to keep things "fair".

One thing that has changed for the better (imo) since Mosley left is that the over regulation of the series has loosened, and that means it just feels so much less contrived than in the recent past. I really want to see teams and drivers winning, rather than boards of management sticking their beaks in too much...

however, this is just a feeling i have, which may very well be wrong. I must admit the more i think of it - the sight of a turbo powered renault coming into power band and bearing down on a v8 ferrari at a great rate of knots is more than a little enticing..
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Old 26 May 2011, 07:26 (Ref:2886008)   #3
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Equivalency formulas never really work though, do they.
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Old 26 May 2011, 09:04 (Ref:2886033)   #4
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They did quite well in sportscar racing when they limited the fuel available. I still think this might be the way to go if they want to achieve a greener image -> do something for efficiency.
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Old 26 May 2011, 09:58 (Ref:2886067)   #5
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As I suspected:

"I don't see, to be honest, the V8s running at the same time as the four cylinders," Boullier told AUTOSPORT.

"It is too extreme and, to balance the performance would be a nightmare and a headache for the FIA."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91721

The turbo engines would require much less fuel than the V8s to complete the same race distance at the same speed.
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Old 27 May 2011, 11:03 (Ref:2886647)   #6
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In theory I would love to see it happen but in my mind there's only one way to do something like this and that's to think the regulations through properly to begin with, write them and then leave it.

If one engine type proves superior than it should be like with the turbo engines in the 80's, the teams will "simply" have to adapt and switch engine type.

Performance balancing after the cars have been built, like in touring car or GT racing, has no place in Formula 1. (IMO not in any form of racing but that's another discussion.)
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Old 27 May 2011, 11:07 (Ref:2886648)   #7
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Yeh I really don't like this performance balancing act half way through a season either.

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Old 27 May 2011, 13:58 (Ref:2886716)   #8
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I think it would be a logical option if there was a two year transition period between new and old engines, many series do such transition periods. Remember that this is nothing new, apart from the 1988 season which wasn't extremely lopsided in terms of engines when you factor out the legend that was the MP4/4 in 2006 teams also had the option to run the old V10s with limitations, which Toro Rosso exercised. Provided there is a clear formula as to what the rules are so it doesn't result in BTCC style whinge-your-way-to-an-advantage - be it a fixed system or a Superbike style objective mathematical formula - it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Moving to 1600cc turbo engines would be a good step forward.
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Old 27 May 2011, 16:00 (Ref:2886762)   #9
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The problem will be in giving the V8s enough of an advantage in order to overcome the 30-40% extra fuel weight they will need to carry in order to do competitive times and also to be able to finish the race.

It's just not going to work.

However, it does seem that the V8s are likely to stay with us for some time yet going by what I've recently read in Autosport.

It seems that only Renault is fully behind the change to turbo engines (it builds road cars that already have similar type engines), along with the FIA. Pretty much everyone else is against it.

No one wants to spend over $100,000,000 on R&D for something that has no relevance to their main priority of selling road cars, apparently.
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Old 27 May 2011, 16:51 (Ref:2886778)   #10
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Who really thinks that Joe Bloggs knows or cares what engines are in F1 cars? They don't have a clue. You could power the thing with pureéd seals and people would be none the wiser. This whole road "relevance thing" is a nonsense.
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Old 27 May 2011, 16:57 (Ref:2886779)   #11
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Who really thinks that Joe Bloggs knows or cares what engines are in F1 cars? They don't have a clue. You could power the thing with pureéd seals and people would be none the wiser.
Indeed. Which is why Joe and his mates ought to stop ticking the yes box for: "Is technology really that important in F1?", in the FIA/FOTA F1 surveys.
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Old 27 May 2011, 19:59 (Ref:2886863)   #12
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Sportscar is tedious because of the diesel/petrol bickering. I have no problem with this, but I will bore quickly of the outrage it will generate.

And if you want real tedium just listen to Plato in touring cars:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128144
(Beware! The linked thread contains facts in all their internet forum glory )
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Old 28 May 2011, 11:08 (Ref:2887050)   #13
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Cosworth express concerns about the commercial viability of the new turbo engines, and the ability of an equivellance formula also being a viable proposition.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91791
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Old 28 May 2011, 14:20 (Ref:2887120)   #14
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whilst equivalency formulas are often a headache and havn't really worked in things like WTCC and Le Mans, they CAN work in F1. V8s may have more power (one would anticipate) but they'd use more fuel during a race. Factor in the length of a grand prix, and it could be rather close and interesting over the race distance.

Ferrari have been complaining lately that F1 isn't as much about engines as it used to be, but it would make things good if the V8s had the advantage speed wise at the speed tracks (Monza, Spa etc) whilst the V4Ts could well be better at places like Monaco. However, I hope things like performance balancing don't come into it and are not needed, that would be against F1s morales.

But IF the FIA could get it right, this would be the best option for everyone.
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Old 28 May 2011, 14:46 (Ref:2887126)   #15
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whilst equivalency formulas are often a headache and havn't really worked in things like WTCC and Le Mans, they CAN work in F1. V8s may have more power (one would anticipate) but they'd use more fuel during a race. Factor in the length of a grand prix, and it could be rather close and interesting over the race distance.
The inline 4 turbo engines and KERS will use 30 to 40% less fuel than the V8s do. That's an awful lot of extra weight to be carrying around during the race, even if you could run the V8 cars lighter, which would also give the V8s an unfair advantage in qualifying.

It would be difficult to equalize them both without people asking the question: Why did we bother with the new engines in the first place?

There's a lot to be said for spec series.
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Old 28 May 2011, 15:45 (Ref:2887145)   #16
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Cosworth express concerns about the commercial viability of the new turbo engines, and the ability of an equivellance formula also being a viable proposition.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91791
That's a good article.. I am not sure I understand how building these power plants makes sense, apart from the fuel saved per race aspect..

Maybe some one would care to explain the logic behind this move..
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Old 28 May 2011, 16:02 (Ref:2887152)   #17
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That's a good article.. I am not sure I understand how building these power plants makes sense, apart from the fuel saved per race aspect..

Maybe some one would care to explain the logic behind this move..
I don't think that there is much logic behind the move. But then can we really believe that F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport if they are still to be powered by what are essentially something dating back to the sixties? Not that there weren't four cylinder turbo engines being used back then in motorsport, either!

IMO they should put the engine out to tender. Superleague have a very good one (V12, 4.2 litre, 750 bhp). Some will protest because it's a spec engine. But would you rather have a very good spec engine or something that may be a good idea from a marketing/green point of view (which is Renault and the FIAs viewpoint), but not from a racing point of view?
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Old 28 May 2011, 16:16 (Ref:2887159)   #18
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But the idea is to become more road relevant if I am not mistaken? Joe Saward says that the pastime of "fishing" uses more fuel than F1..

I am not fishing here by the way, but just trying to get my head around the practical side of having to spend bucket loads of money developing a new engine.

Ferrari of course are never going to agree to this because they do not use 4 cylinder engines in any of their road cars..

I remember, I think it was during an Autosport podcast that Mr Mosley had asked if the sound of a F1 car was really that important as he thought is got in the way of TV commentary..
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Old 28 May 2011, 16:39 (Ref:2887167)   #19
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But the idea is to become more road relevant if I am not mistaken? Joe Saward says that the pastime of "fishing" uses more fuel than F1..
If Renault weren't supplying engines to two other teams already (and aiming to supply even more), I doubt that any of the other teams would be taking a blind bit of notice of what Mr Todt is saying.

I must admit that I also use more fuel to go fishing than when I'm sat in front of the TV, watching F1. If F1 can stop me from going fishing on a Sunday afternoon.......

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I am not fishing here by the way, but just trying to get my head around the practical side of having to spend bucket loads of money developing a new engine.
As the Cosworth article suggests. The teams that they are likely to be selling an engine to, probably couldn't care less about how green it is as long as it's competitive and affordable.

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Ferrari of course are never going to agree to this because they do not use 4 cylinder engines in any of their road cars..
Ferrari have said that they will go along with whatever is agreed upon.

Perhaps if they fitted two 1.5/6 turbo engines side by side?

Although, I seem to remember that they had a very good eight cylinder 3 litre twin turbo engine in one of their road cars a while back?

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I remember, I think it was during an Autosport podcast that Mr Mosley had asked if the sound of a F1 car was really that important as he thought is got in the way of TV commentary..
He also suggested that the teams should use a spec engine. That didn't go down too well.
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Old 28 May 2011, 22:35 (Ref:2887273)   #20
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V8 >> 4cyl (in formula cars)

But keep the 1.6 turbo rules.
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Old 29 May 2011, 00:30 (Ref:2887305)   #21
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one..i dont understand..blown diffusers..throttle back on the turns..i thought it was a ecu used by all the teams..how can u use engine mapping without it being available to all the teams..
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Old 29 May 2011, 06:29 (Ref:2887338)   #22
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one..i dont understand..blown diffusers..throttle back on the turns..i thought it was a ecu used by all the teams..how can u use engine mapping without it being available to all the teams..
The hardware is standard but I believe the teams are free to write their own software or at least parts of it. Certainly they create their own engine maps.
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Old 29 May 2011, 09:53 (Ref:2887391)   #23
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You couldn't use the same map on different engines, therefore the teams must be able to run their own maps.
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Old 31 May 2011, 20:41 (Ref:2889005)   #24
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Why not give the teams 100l (and a bit less every year) of fuel per race, and let them built 6 engines (and one less every few years) just the way they like them to. 1 cilinder or 16? 0,5l or 4l? Do as you see fit. Turbo's or kers to give a boost? Maybe bikepedals in the cockpit? Solarcollectors? great! Now that will be challenge!
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Old 1 Jun 2011, 08:44 (Ref:2889241)   #25
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Why not give the teams 100l (and a bit less every year) of fuel per race, and let them built 6 engines (and one less every few years) just the way they like them to. 1 cilinder or 16? 0,5l or 4l? Do as you see fit. Turbo's or kers to give a boost? Maybe bikepedals in the cockpit? Solarcollectors? great! Now that will be challenge!
It would also be expensive and manufacturers may have to build an engine that doesn't have any relevance to their road cars in order to be competitive.

And with a fuel formula, less cylinders will always be an advantage over more cylinders. Ferrari gave up with the V12 because it was too heavy and thirsty.

Note: We should know more about what is happening in the future with regard to engines, on Friday.
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