too professional

[racer69]

is it just me or are the so-called entry levels of motorsport becomeing a bit too professional these days. Its good that the ATCC is professional, but it makes no sense that you can't compete in the Australian Production car series on your P's, when you could in the late 80s and early 90s

[DAVID PATERSON]

I would hardly call Production cars entry level. Surely anything that requires current model cars is a bit beyond the entry level budget. I personally think it's a good thing that P platers are kept out of National Championships. I think they should do a season or two at state/club level first.

For me, entry level racing is Formula Vee, Clubman Sports Cars, Production Sportscars, HQs, Geminis, Street Sedans or under 2-litre Improved Production Touring Cars.

[Ray Bell]

No, it's not you, racer69, and I'll disagree with David because he simply doesn't know enough about how it should be. He's far too young!

CAMS has spent thirty years making it harder for people to race. Licence tests that never previously existed (even Spencer Martin, multiple Gold Star winner of the sixties, had to undergo this humiliation!), driving suits that match what F1 drivers have to have, all the other stuff that's somewhat over the top... desirable, perhaps, but necessary? No, not really!

They pile costs on Clubs and race organisers, make profits out of insurance fees charged to promoters so that they can buy grandiose buildings and hire hot-shot CEOs that can pile more imposts on the competitor and promoter and Clubs.

Where I do agree with David is that you should set your sights initially on State level meetings, then graduate from there. But racing is a sport for all, not the select few.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Ray, I absolutely agree with your post, in it's entirety, but I'm at a loss to understand what part of my post you don't agree with.

P.S. I'm not that young, I'm 31.

[Ray Bell]

You hinted (and even included one point) at a restrictive view about who could contest title races. That was my point....

31?

Absolutely juvenile! I suppose if I counted them up, I went to better than over 200 race meetings before you were born! You were in nappies when I first raced...

[DAVID PATERSON]

Ray, i'm adamant that P platers should stay out of National Championships and you'd be very hard pressed to find a lot of experienced racers who'd argue with that.

Sure 31 is along way from 50 or 60, but hey it's a long way from 18 or 20 too.

[Ray Bell]

With National Championships for all sorts of categories (street class cars would be an ideal example), why should newcomers be kept out?

Perhaps there should be some intelligent seeding, but there are newcomers right through some of these classes, and in some states it might cut them out of a race meeting altogether, one meeting out of five potential meetings a year.

Let's face it, there are many in FF who are barely off P-plates, and somebody pointed out today that this is one of the most professional series in the country.

31 might not be pram material, but it's just too young for you to have the background of knowledge to understand how things have developed over the past forty years.

[DAVID PATERSON]

I fail to see how someone who could only afford a street car to race can afford to travel the nation in pursuit of a National championship. Travel money is a huge part of any National championship competitor's budget.

31 isn't pram material, no maybe about it.

[Ray Bell]

You miss the point, David... or at least I think you do. The Championship Series comes to town, why not let the locals join in?

They don't have to follow the whole series... oh, yes, now they have to pay to register for the Series, don't they? Another CAMS ripoff!

Seeding may be necessary, as mentioned.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Good point Ray, I was referring to novices who do a full National series. I forgot about the worthwhile practice of using locals to fill up a National grid, something the Sports Sedan guys are trying very hard to do now. Series registration fees are by and large anothe ripoff.

[Crash Test]

31....bah!

I've seen guys go around at the back of HQ Holden fields for 5 meetings, go bog slow but keep out of trouble, get their signatures, and their international licence- BAM straight into V8 Sueprcars. I really don't think that is right. Maybe if they had some form of orientation process where experienced runners go out and team the guys the ropes, would probably work.

Then again, you can run with Ps in the Commodore Cup, and to drive one of those things fast is pretty tough- many of the newcomers are capable of that....so I guess there are always exceptions to the rules.

[Ray Bell]

I'm in favour of anything that makes it easier for people to get themselves onto the circuit... within reason, of course, such as not compromising safety standards.

[DAVID PATERSON]

For some years now Ray, I've been almost convinced that CAMS are doing whatever they can to keep ordinary people out of the sport. It has already become almost impossible for a bloke on an average wage to go racing at State/club level. What I can't figure out is why we don't get the oppurtunity to vote out these hopeless fools.

[Ray Bell]

Technically you do, David. You can put a motion at your Club for your
Club to represent certain ideals at the CAMS' State Council meetings. Your Club has a vote on the choice of the State representative to the National Council.

The problem is that the National Council of the CAMS is guided mainly by two factions that are at odds with people with your interests. They have dozens of Clubs whose main aim is rallying and other minor events. And they have employees who are seeking to implement things that they think are beneficial. Without background knowledge that might guide them.

This is a seriously important point, I feel, for the CAMS in the seventies took to hiring people with Sports Management experience, not motor racing, but tennis, cricket or football management. The essentially know nothing...

So there needs to be more strength given to the racing oriented Clubs, their views have to be more strongly put at the National Council level.

There are other ways. Each State has a Racing Panel. But this becomes a toothless tiger, for it reports to the State Council, which is in the grip of all those votes from the Clubs with non-racing interests.

Now, why would these other Clubs seek to overturn the views of those involved in racing?

Because everyone knows what racing is about, don't they? After all, that's the V8 Supercars they see on television!

I'm afraid you need to get your Club and other racing oriented Clubs to be firm in their pressing the State Council.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Ray, as you describe we the mebers do have voting rights but they are so diluted and indirect as to be ALMOST worthless. As a former State Councillor I'm only to aware of the fact that State Council, the only place where clubs have a direct input is only able to control matters which are of exclusive relevance to that state. Many, many highly important issues have National ramifications and are therfore debated at National level, by a handful of people who've completely lost touch with club level Motorsport.

In my time on State Council, i could never figure out why so many of the rally, motorkana or offroad clubs were so keen to take part in the debate on circuit racing issues.

[RaceTime]

Crash: re the Commodore Cup - not classified as a National Championship - thus you can run with P's - same with the F2 series until this year....

[Amaroo Park]

One of the biggest problems with CAMS is that at national meetings that ever state gets one vote while in theory this sounds fine you then have to consider that the majorty of CAMS members and affiliated clubs are in NSW and VIC. Cams has become a political body who no longer considers or cares what is happening with Club and State level motorsport. However the power to do something about it belongs with every one that holds a Cams licenece and is a member of a Cams affiliated Club. CAMS will NOT chang because the people in power are very happy with there lot

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON
In my time on State Council, i could never figure out why so many of the rally, motorkana or offroad clubs were so keen to take part in the debate on circuit racing issues.

Well, now you know...

I never knew you were on the State Council... I guess you didn't know I was once a CAMS delegate, for the Clubman Racing Assn of NSW, and this led to me filling a mid-term vacancy on the Racing Panel, and then I became Chairman of the Racing Panel, because the Chairman resigned when I was appointed... Then I wrote my Chairman's report at the end of the year, with some input along the lines of some points I've mentioned above...

The former Chairman wrote to congratulate me!

But nothing meant anything, for exactly the reasons described by colinbond. Even if the State Council directs their National Councillor to take a particular stance on an issue, he is not bound by that direction!