What was so special about Webbers 2003 season?

[Mr V]

I realise that i have to be careful here, knowing the amount of fans that Mark has and i would just like to say that i think he is a real talent and would love to see him alongside Jenson in a Williams although thats not the point of the thread.

Mark scored 17 points in 03 (4 7th places and 3 6th places), qualified an average 3rd on the grid in Friday quali's and got the whole team around him.

However had we had the old points system, he would have scored 3 points, thats it.

Then i refer you to the Irvine thread, where people have mixed feelings about Eddie, but generally he was seen as over-rated, loud mouthed and a playboy. But, he scored 4 points in 2000, 6 in 2001 (inc a podium at Monaco) and 8 points in 2002 (inc a podium at Monza) so, bearing in mind, had the old points scoring system been in place for 2003, Eddie the over-rated, loud mouthed playboy would have outscored Mark, so i ask, what was different, and what made his (Marks) season special?

[Testure]

I think it was down to both his qualifying (which you mention) and the fact that he did pretty well against his team-mates. Short answer

It would have been a much better idea to have had Irvine along-side him last season, but good ideas don't come along too often at Jag...

[Knowlesy]

I think attitude, and loyalty to Jaguars cause is very commendable. He works relentlessly hard and deserves a better car really.

He's bloody fast too!

[ralf fan]

His qulys... sometimes over one and a ghalf secs quicker than is teammate.
I think his FRI qulys were the best as he would get amongst the top runners eventhough they were on similar fuel loads...

[Raglanparade]

yeah i think he did well considering the rise of Renualt taking away a lot of point scoring chances.
When Irvine was at Jag, there was only 3 top teams in f1. Ferrari were head and shoulders above the rest, then came McLaren, and then came Williams. Any failures by these teams (remembering that williams had very dodgy BMW's during parts of 2000 and 2001) and then there was a points paying position available.
The mid-field is a lot stronger. Benetton were no where to be seen around the end of there life (apart from Fisi's great poduim at SPA 2001). There is now Renualt, Toyota, and even BAR that are potentually stronger then Jaguar.
Mark was mixing it with the big guys all last season, his hungary race was evidence! but often his car let him down (melbourne), or misfortune happened his way (brazil)..
Either way i think Mark is a much better guy to have around Jag then Irvine ever was, he keeps morale high, and thats that a struggling team needs.

-jason

[Mark Webber]

A his speed in a car thats was lets face it not the hottest outthere with his work ethic . I can not the see point in comparing the "old point system " the fact is its gone and so much has changed since then makes it a non issue .
even when the car stuggled Mark pushed the car to places where is should not have been ala Monza / Austria. Let's not lose sight this is his 2nd year in F1 Mark has to one of the most resepcted Drivers in and out of the car as its clearly shown in the awards he recives . Mark has also disposed of some highly regarded young talent too lets not forget
Mark did have a very good year

[RWC]

You want to compare irvine who was FLOGGED by his team mate ...to someone who dominated any team mate put against him ???

Yes this is not the full story but..no irvine ain't close

[Mr V]

Originally posted by RWC
You want to compare irvine who was FLOGGED by his team mate ...

MMMM Flogged?

2000 Eddie 4 pts Johnny 0
2001 Eddie 6 pts Luciano 0/Pedro 3
2002 Eddie 8 pts Pedro 0

Points mean everything my friend, and please stop taking everything so personally. I have in no way critisized Marks performance, merely asking the question about what was the difference?

[JohnSSC]

Again, being careful to state that I think Mark is a driver with a big upside, when rating Irvine/Webber it bears keeping in mind the following:

1) During Irvine's tenure his team mates were at least marginally better than Pizzonia/Wilson.

2) During Irvine's tenure, the "second tier" teams (Sauber, Renault, Jordan and Arrows) were stronger as a group.

3) Qualifying was much different in '02 than '03, with Irvine not driving in '03 it is hard to judge how he would have done under the "new" system.

4) The team settled down a but in "03 with the revolving employment door not moving quite so quickly.

In my humble opinion then I think I have to give the edge to Irvine on his race performances against a more competitive gaggle of wannabe's in mid-pack. Points were harder to come by not only because of the old system being in place but the level of competition.

I suspect Mark would have out-qualified Eddie as well under the new system. This I think is Mark's biggest strength right now.

Now, I am already hiding under my desk in preparation of all manner of prtestations by Mark's fans. I do really believe that by the end of his career Mark will have eclipsed Irvine's record quite easily. so far though he is still on the uphill side of the learning curve.

[Arai GP5]

Jag had a much bigger budget back when Eddie was around - but $$$ isn't everything.

In 2003, although Sauber were weaker, Mark had to race the bigger budgets and more competitive teams in Renault, BARHonda and Toyota. When Eddie was at Jag, these teams were not as strong, and the Jag budget was closer to theirs than it is now.

Ultimately, I can see why overseas people, not as patriotic as us Aussies, may doubt Mark: because he hasn't had a consistently good teammate yet.

I think his best teammate so far has been Anthony Davidson for the two races at Minardi.

But just wait people, he'll kick arse in 2004 (well, as much as the Jag will let him, but recent signs have been good), and we wait with baited breath for 2005.

[Mark Webber]

Not from me JohnSSC . I'll let Mark do his talking on track with results.
Everyone has there own opinion

[grumpy1]

People have short memories.When Eddie put the Jag on the podium the only reason he finished third was because an Arrows had a bender in front of Webber(in a Minardi)which deposited hugh amounts of carbon fiber all over the place which punctured Marks right rear tyre.Irvine inhereted the position from the Arrows mess and Webber who was 4th.As for whos better well lets have a look. The following have praised Mark Burnie Eccelstone Mika Hakkinan M Shumacher.
Funny but Shuie didn't like Eddie and Mika said he should learn some manners. Mark has also bought together the Jag team members that matter.The people who build and keep the car running.In his own words what goes on in the board room is not his problem putting a Jag at the pointie end of the feild is his.To bring a disorganised bunch together as a team that is now performing well. Most of it at groung level is down to Webber.Eddie didn't give a hoot about what happened when he got out of the car.
Taking all of the above into the argument you have to say that M Webber will win hands down.

The Grumpy1

[Venom XR]

Eddie's experience prior to Jaguar? 1993-1999 in Jordan and Ferrari. Mark's? 1 year at Minardi.

[ozrevhead]

Mark is a better bet than Irvine - dont get me wrong, Eddie had tallent its just that Mark has the Intrest of jag at no. 1 priority and his own ambition second where as Eddie put himself ahead of Jaguar! What grumpy1 said was 100% Correct - Mark can bring a team together even as disorganised as what Jaguar!

on Mark's team mates - Wilson bet Mark in F3000 and Pizziona came to Jag with a high regard by Sir Frank Williams - who would know somthing about F1

He has the respect of every one it pit lane - Burnie Eccelstone, Mika Hakkinan, Shumacher, Sir Frank have praised Mark and every driver voted for him unamisoly to be a part of the Drivers Association!

Mark has the speed, techical nouse, attitiute, work and team ethic and the balls to make it and i hope he gets a decent driver

[vatuloa]

Mark got the best of Fridays practise and he was on a number of occasions able to bring it home in qualiflying on Saturday. It was then his reliability that got his home and his car had the best tyres. This year we need the car to be faster

[oziengineer]

To agree Mr V, Mark Webber's season wasn't that brilliant, but he did well. Irvine had also been in Formula One much longer than Webber when he was number one. Hell, he was runner up or third in 1999. He was racing in Senna's day, but Webber, he's only been in 2.

[BootsOntheSide]

The comparison with the old points system is extremely relevant, because the new one rewards reliability mroe than outright pace (whether this is good or bad is open to debate). Mark never finished higher than 6th despite his qualifying, and I rarely see anyone criticise him for sliding down the order during races, whereas with Trulli we never praise his qualifying.

As John says, he had a MUCH better situation at Jaguar than Irvine, with the car unquestionably better than the 2003 one, yet he still did worse, whichever points system you apply. There was little sign of progress as the season went on, despite the improved stability of the team, and the fact that gaining experience as the year goes on is more apparent for a sophomore driver than one who's been around 10 years.

[golem]

I think Irvine was one of those drivers who could vary on any given day from sub standard to inspired, personally. In a mid pack car, this can net you more points than someone who is generally quick like Webber, where very quick will get you a sixth at best.

Also note that reliability of the leading 4 teams has risen in response to Ferrari, meaning it's harder and harder to get into the six, as opposed to 1 reliable top team, 2 somewhat reliable top teams and others you are competitive with.

I'd say Irvine may have had more speed, but only sporadically. Webber always seems to be pushing really hard. Has the guts to head for his limits more often. Maybe my perception is skewiff but that's just how it seems to me.