Genuine vs non original

[zefarelly]

This could run and run . . .or like most of my threads, die a silent death !

original , I think we all understand that one, although we do get more than one of the same thing from time to time . . .

replicas are generally reasonable copies for road/track day use cars, caterham, cobras etc, I'm not aware many attempt historic racing, or are accepted

continuation cars . . . . no such thing to my mind as not many people can remanufacture to exact period spec and standards as well as material quality changes, I speak with some personal experience of this, as well as having worked in an engineering/design capacity for an English heritage approved company

then the new chassis/reshell . . . new chassis is a step too far ? but how about a new alfa/cortina shell ? its still period genuine stuff, although I'm not sure about 'new' heritage shells though . . .don't know how they're made, they must be better than the originals?

any fibreglass bodies car seems to have been repaired and subsequently got heavier, although there seems to be no shortage of new paper thin panels being produced to replace them . . . TVR's and marcos spring to mind, being very competitive at present, you can induce stress cracks in some by staring at them!

[simon drabble]

its the old story of the antique table isn't it? However with race cars its a difficult one - for example most 60's sports racer chassis would have rusted out by now and be completely unsafe to race. Therefore I think for actively campaigned cars its more of a case of there being a continuous history. CRD (who manufactured Merlyns) are still in existance and will sell a new chassis to you so long as you can give to them the old chassis - this is then destroyed to ensure no replication.
My bodywork is its original and as a result it needs two people to carry the front! My car probably runs 60 kg overweight. Over the winter I might get a lighter front made but will keep the old one to retain its history. I think that keeps it original integrity in tact.
New shells is a difficult one - a racing saloon car/GT might roll at some point and so long as the same chassis plate goes into the new shell (ie two cars dont emerge) I dont think that is a problem as its keeping a race car on a track. I know of a Lotus Cortina which Lanfranchi rolled at Chimay several years ago and it was reshelled. Personally I think that is part of that cars history and do not see any problems with it.

[terence]

The problem arrises when the crook,s get involved!.There was once a pretty wealthy one who bought a chassis section from a couple of likely lad,s,the rail just happened to hold the chassis number of a GT40.There are now two of those!.If the hostorical course is documented as to what changes/restoration is carried out,then it should not be a problem.One of the reasons for our new HTP,s I belive!. Has you,re front end been modified to counter front end lift Simon.?

[zefarelly]

even works saloons where reshelled in period, so as long as the history file is maintained everythings tracable, and as you say TB, crooksare the biggest problem, and I guess to a lesser extent the less reputable dealers who sell them!

[Podd37]

What then does a modern build of an old shell become, ie, my car was built 2yrs ago from a '74 road car. It is very close to full period Gp2 FIA spec. Is it a replica? Or a continuation? I think this is the biggest problem in historic racing, trying to figure out whats original (can any old racing car be as it left the factory?) or what is, as i like to think of mine, a recreation. I don't have much faith in the idea of the 'continuation' cars as no-one will engineer in things that we may find dangerous about an original design. Surely the 'modern' Lola T70 will have a stronger cockpit and tub and the fuel tanks use safer internals than the original had to prevent people being injured. If it doesn't ...then we've learnt nothing and if it does it's not a continuation.

[terence]

In my veiw ,there are instances where ,in order to keep a car running,then a rebuild is the only option,indeed ,the factory/constructor,s are guilty of this practice.If a car is that baddly damaged,then sure rebuild it ,as long as ALL the original serviving components are refitted to the replacement chassis/shell.As long as the chassis etc is not a brand new item,and is of period.Continuation is not restoration,it,s a brand new creation,taking advantage of new techniques / materials etc.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Has you,re front end been modified to counter front end lift Simon.?

truthful answer is I dont know! I leave all that stuff to Terry and Phil!

[Peter Mallett]

Yep,

I could never afford an original Works Group 2 Capri, but if I keep this job for another year I might get management approval for a replica. Obviously engines, axles, etc. would all necessarily be from the original castings but what would that make the car? A replica? Also if it is a replica does that mean I can only race in modern series?

[terence]

The thing I personaly find extremely annoying is when some one builds a new car,new shell,engine ,g/box ,axle,etc etc and then stick,s an exwork,s number on it. This has happened an awfull lot over the year,s,and is still happening.I have a replica Work,s Mgb[as you know Peter] but I will never try and sell it as an original,there is an ex-registration number available[at a price].!!However,the shell is an identical copy of what the work,s did in period,the car has been mine since this work was carried out by myself.75% of the car is as it left the prodution line in 64,it,s a restoration!

[zefarelly]

I think saloons are somewhat different from specific racing cars, or production racers etc.

As fas I'm aware nearly all saloons where produced from std production cars, even if 80-% of it did end up being recycled!

I think you can count the original race saloons on one hand that are currently racing, virtually all of them are newish builds or reworked road cars.

If you turned out now in Jim Clarks ex works 1964 LC to period spec you'd probably be near the back of the grid however well you pedalled it

[GBRM]

Just as a bit of a devil's advocate; what's the difference between re-shelling a racing car in period with a period shell to re-shelling that same car now with a shell that's period too? (I hope that question makes sense!!)

I believe in recreation's but not as a replacement to an original and they should have no part to play in historic/FIA racing but it is very hard to draw the line with replacement panels, shells, etc. I'm sure we can all think of countless cases (The Bentley, CUT 7, Lister Jaguars, even Vauxhall Magnums!!) where to you and I the owner has gone either too far in replacements or started with a steering rack only but in his eyes and the eyes of many others it is acceptable.

Was it Jenks who stopped doing a race car archive in the '50s when he found out the F1 boys were taking chassis numbers off cars to leave them abroad and earn some cash? It's a problem that started a long time ago.

[terence]

Yes ,I agree Zef,The road car situation is somewhat divorced from original race car,s/sports racers,but the principal still applys.If ,say a body shell was available from Ford,along with eveything else to re-create a Work,s Car,and all that was needed was a chassis number,like Lotus26R,s,all of a sudden there would be quite a few more than were ever produced.All I,m trying to say is that any given car with genuine history ,should the worst thing happen,be rebuilt using as much of the original as possible ,using the same techniques to put it back together again.

[terence]

It was,nt a practice only carried out by F1,most manufacturers did it in order to help pay for the trips etc.One of the reasons there have been so many "Find,s" over the last 20yrs or so.

[simon drabble]

a certain Italian race car manufacturer only put chassis numbers on race cars they exported - as late as the mid 70's.....

[zefarelly]

FIat? that would explain the lack of genuine Abarths

Agreed Terence, and there are more of some models now than there where

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

FIat? that would explain the lack of genuine Abarths

Agreed Terence, and there are more of some models now than there where

Right,there,s this barn in Suffolk--------

[GBRM]

I know of one in Norfolk............

[simon drabble]

I wish I knew of one anywhere!

[terence]

Originally Posted by GBRM

I know of one in Norfolk............

Yeah,but you,re only making it up.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Yeah,but you,re only making it up.

Maybe!!

I do know of a fairly well known car collector in Norofolk who has quite a few rarities though.

[John Turner]

We got massively into this a year ago and it went on well into this year. I think with the possible exception of Gregor, who only joined us this year, we all contributed substantively to it and you may consider it worth a revisit:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...als+V+replicas

[terence]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Maybe!!

I do know of a fairly well known car collector in Norofolk who has quite a few rarities though.

Not anymore Gregor,He moved upto Scotland after selling off most of the collection.

[john ruston]

Try Pre War Thread two weeks ago.Its all the same stuff be it Bentleys,Talbots,MGB's Lotus 23 Chevron Same problems ,Different cars

[simon drabble]

so we have done fakes v replica's, indulged in a bit of Masters baiting, touched on FIA stuff - it must be time to start discussing Godwood and Spa 6 Hour and then we are done for another year!!

[terence]

Really ,i suppose it beggers the question"Who,s to blame,FIA for not policing,or the owners for wanting that advantage,Or the Organizing Club,s"?.One of those question,s that will go around for ever.The point is that it happen,s all the time,the bigger question is "How to Stop it"?.