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View Poll Results: IS it a good idea to limit tyres to 3 sets per season?
Yes - It's a great idea 9 40.91%
No - I want all the tyres I can get my hands on 12 54.55%
Doh! Not bothered either way. 1 4.55%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19 Jul 2007, 22:19 (Ref:1967874)   #1
Walshy
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Walshy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The great tyre debate.....

Now that I'm back up to full operating mode again, I thought I would pick this up where it was left off back in October of last year.

The same old debate on tyres and number of sets used rages on in the Formula Ford ranks and the old arguement of the have's and have nots.

I purchased a new set of tyres at the Festival in October and when I went up the steps in the truck to pay, Brian from Avon said to me "so your Walshy then?"

Expecting a few choice words from him about my ramblings on restricting the number of sets per competitor and limiting his sales, I found he was in favour of the idea. This was due to the fact that history has shown them that by restricting the number of tyres per competitor, they actually sell more tyres!!!!

Instead of a handful of drivers buying all the tyres, if you allocate each car a maximum number of 3 sets per year, then each driver tends to buy all 3 allocated sets. IT is then up to the driver to make the most of what he/she has.

Apparently, this is quite easily policed as all the tyres are numbered and you don't have to buy all 3 sets at once or at all, as the numbers can be taken at any stage of a season.

A little more homework is required on this before we take it to the powers that be, but as a tester, I thought I'd run a quick poll and see what general consensus is like. No point in following it up if nobody wants it.

Don't just vote. Have your say as well and any more ideas would be good on this topic.

I believe this tyre limiting has worked in Ireland with great success, so why we can't run it over here I don't know.

Cheers

Last edited by Walshy; 19 Jul 2007 at 22:23.
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Old 19 Jul 2007, 23:31 (Ref:1967906)   #2
blue nose
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Chris new rubber is better than old.

Those that are selling it to us will not limit the amount as they are used to earining lots of profit. Which is good for their business, But not the competitor.

We all know they are good for one race and maybee a test before they are useless and for what they cost.... Or 5 laps of Anglesey.

Maybee there is a better tyre out now than these 15 year old ones.
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 07:09 (Ref:1968073)   #3
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To limit the tyres to three per season is pretty dumb in my opinion. We completely wore out 2 brand new and 2 old tyres last weekend alone at Anglesey.

The tyres Ian ran in the Moose quite frankly were dangerous in the wet, which is why he came in and parked the car up before the end of the race. If the tyre truck had been present on the sunday, he would have had new tyres.

I would be very unhappy to be told that tyres would be limited to three sets per year. What would happen if Mr X put new tyres on and Mr y was stuck on an old set that had had loads of heat cycles put through them. It would give Mr y a performance disadvantage for that race.

What would happen if you wore your three sets out after say six meetings. Slow down for the rest of the season?

Not practical I'm afraid.


Of course I wish the tyres lasted longer, but at the end of the day, this is motor racing, and its an expensive pastime.

If you want to cut costs over a season. make the engines last longer, get the BRSCC to promote the races to the general public in order to get a slice of the gate money to enable them to reduce the entry fees. They do no advertising or promotion at all of any substance and rely on the competitors to fund everything.

Sack off half the hangers on from the brscc and MSA to make costs of running a meeting less. The 750 mc meetings have a far cheaper entry fee. Why?

I understand the reasoning behind the tyre limiting theory, but where does it stop? Does that mean limiting testing, limiting the use of newer cars as they can be faster, limiting the amount of engines, ban data loggers.

Surely we should be trying to move ff1600 forward, not backwards.
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 07:12 (Ref:1968075)   #4
Walshy
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Did you not read the Post Alan!

They are saying they are happy to agree to this if we do.

I suppose it all depends on your driving style and how you treat your tyres.

I know plenty of drivers setting good lap times and even winning on some very second hand tyres. In the interest of the sport, this has to be a good measure as it reduces costs and levels out the playing field.

As I said mate, it's worked elsewhere.

Anyway, you haven't voted ............
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 07:21 (Ref:1968081)   #5
Walshy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartingdad
To limit the tyres to three per season is pretty dumb in my opinion.
You might want to choose your words a little more carefully.

This is an open and honest debate and open to any opinion.

Where you may be disadvantaged one weekend, you make up for it another. You save one set as your Wet set. It's not hard to get your head around is it??????

Testing is a seperate thing. Buy all the tyres you want for testing. Do all the testing you want. But you have 3 sets for the year for the race meetings. And yes, the situation at Anglesey is slightly different at the moment due to it still rubbering in, but it's getting better.

It works in other Formulae as well. It just becomes another skill of the driver rather than drivers relying on new tyres everytime they go out to make them look better than they actually are!
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 09:23 (Ref:1968156)   #6
kartingdad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walshy
You might want to choose your words a little more carefully.

This is an open and honest debate and open to any opinion.

Where you may be disadvantaged one weekend, you make up for it another. You save one set as your Wet set. It's not hard to get your head around is it??????

Testing is a seperate thing. Buy all the tyres you want for testing. Do all the testing you want. But you have 3 sets for the year for the race meetings. And yes, the situation at Anglesey is slightly different at the moment due to it still rubbering in, but it's getting better.

It works in other Formulae as well. It just becomes another skill of the driver rather than drivers relying on new tyres everytime they go out to make them look better than they actually are!

Why would i want to choose my words more carefully?

Apparently this is an honest and open debate.

As I said, I understand the concept, but in my opinion, its dumb.

You are now saying that of your threee sets, one you would keep as wets, so effectively you are having only 2 sets for a whole season leaving the option of using your 'wets' for the final race.

What happens if you choose to use your wets on a track that drys out? They would then be not good anough to be used as wets later.

Sorry, but its a daft idea and one often mooted by people who think that new tyres are the only reason people go quick.

Its not the only reason, but if you want to be truly competetive, then new tyres do help.

Why spoil a race because this weekend mr x was on his old tyres?

One new set a weekend is the only responsible method of controling tyre usage.

Surely its not too hard to get your head around?
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 09:33 (Ref:1968164)   #7
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where's the fight going to be then? this is better than the ClubF3 thread!

tyres eh! how to start an argument in an empty room.......
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 09:39 (Ref:1968169)   #8
Walshy
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By saying it's a dumb idea is to insinuate that anyone that agrees with it is dumb.......

I'm certainly not dumb!

It's a valid idea and one that can be adhered to. It has been proven. I might keep one set for the wet, but you don't have to. That's the idea. It's up to you to manage your tyres.

We are only talking about 10 races of 20 minutes. Plus 10 15 minute qualifiers. That's works out to less than 2 hours per set. As I said, you can use all the tyres you want for testing and other events.

You seem to be making the assumption that you would be at a disadvantage to those around you. Everyone will be in the same boat. That's the point. Nobody has an advantage.


Now that's not hard to get your head around.

Thought I'd start a friendly debate and you've managed to sour it.

Well done!
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 09:44 (Ref:1968175)   #9
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The main problem the way I see it from having separate tyres for testing and racing is the lack of space issue unless you have a big truck . As most people do the majority of their testing the day before a race you would need to set aside more space for all the tyres you need for the test day (maybe a worn set and a good set if its wet ) and the same again for race day . That is potentially 4 sets of rims/tyres .
Where do you put that lot if you tow with a road car ? There is also the cost issue of running 4 sets instead of 2 .
For championships that test the day before they race such as NW FFord I don't think limiting tyres would work
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 09:47 (Ref:1968178)   #10
kartingdad
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Nobodys soured it. Maybe spiced it up a bit though.

Just like winding people up a bit!


Doh! Some people............

Actually, its not about being diadvantaged, but whats the point in racing on knackered tyres? Might as well go banger racing.

See my original post for cost cutting ideas that could work without detrimentally affecting the racing.

We have 3 sets of rims. Oldest set for shaking car down, middle set for testing and set of new ones for the races. We generaly get one set of tyres every couple of meetings which averages out at 200 per meeting.

Thats less than an entry fee, and the same price as a days testing. So if you are happy to spend 200 testing and more on an entry fee, then why not 200 on tyres?

On the other hand Stuart won at the weekend on tyres that were completely wrecked, having done the entire WHT and at least 2 test days and a race. Its all about choice.

Last edited by kartingdad; 20 Jul 2007 at 09:55.
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 10:00 (Ref:1968189)   #11
Walshy
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Walshy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No worries.

I bit. Totally.

I'll get you back.

There are many ways of cutting costs, some cut costs more than others.

But I'm just echoing what has been said by the tyre people. Limiting tyres does work.
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 10:35 (Ref:1968229)   #12
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I agree with Walshy
If u read Diz's latest newsletter our numbers are falling--especially A's & B's.
Tyre management has always been a skill--even F1 are limited!!!
Racing tyres are outrageously priced from Karting upwards so to create this level playing field that FFord bangs on about limiting the number seems to make sense--doesn't it.
Winning using 3 sets in a meeting when there only 2 runners!!(everyone else has gone fishing) --- not much satisfaction.
Oh and BTW how much more expensive will entry fees become if number of cars reduce and how much extra will we have to pay for TV (assuming anyone wants to watch 2 cars!!)
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 10:48 (Ref:1968236)   #13
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A Quartermaine should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There is also a safety issue to be considered in line with this debate.
Limiting the number of tyres available to a competitor for a season is potentially a useful measure to reduce costs but its validity is dependent upon safety.

Some circuits, set ups and driving styles will dramatically increase tyre wear. If you had made a mess of your 3 sets of tyres by mid season would you contemplate lapping the Rockingham banking at 109 - 124 mph in the heavy rain?

Having done this a few weeks ago i would not have raced on a very green and very wet circuit on old tyres and if this restriction existed i would have packed up, gone home and sold the car.

The most effective manner to reduce costs is to run more double header meetings, it certainly has helped to boost our grids this season and increase the value for money.
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 10:53 (Ref:1968241)   #14
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Totally agree with you there AQ and comman sense has to prevail in these situations.

But a driver couldn't constantly use this as an excuse. Tyre management is a skill and as I said previously, One set aside for wet might not be such a bad idea. That's up to the individual though.

I agree with double headers too.
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 10:55 (Ref:1968244)   #15
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I agree that limited tyes would control costs. It does work, however I do feel that the tyes are not upto the job.

There is clearly a wear issue with ACB10's and it about time we the FF comunity requested a new tyre deal. We would not only probably get a better tyre, performamnce vs wear but also cheaper.

On another note why not limit testing: Testing is expensive on tyres, engines, fuel, time ...... Is it really nessesary to do lap after lap in testing. Some of the very best drivers I know do relatively little testing. I would have thought 3 or 4 test a year would be enough for anyone, partticularly at single venue championships.
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