[VASC19R23R24] ITM Auckland SuperSprint Pukekohe Park Raceway NZ - 13-15 Sep

[DX20VT]

I had it recorded and it took me going back and forth a few times to figure it out.

From what I could tell,

On lap 12 Jamie was the leader.
He pitted just before the safety car and put in about 40L of fuel.
Came out down the back somewhere, leader of those who had already pitted.
Safety car came out and all those in front of Jamie pitted, S Mac put in around 90L of fuel,
Jamie and the previously pitted cars passed them while they were in the pits as they stopped for a lot longer putting in 90L of fuel.
That put jamie back into first and Lee 2nd, but both requiring a longer second stop.

When he came up behind the safety car, he was the leader of the race.
Lee was second.
Whincups mistake was passing the safety car,
Race controls was letting everyone else through after that.?

[GTRMagic]

Whincup To Face CAMS Sanctions..?

[mayhem]

Whincup says ' Sorry about that' to CAMS

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Whincup says ' Sorry about that' to CAMS

It IS Bathurst in a couple of weeks....

Unconvinced that Mr Whincup was entirely wrong, although his past history with Safety Cars probably clouds many views.

What exactly is CAMS’ succession plan for Mr Schenken anyway?

[mayhem]

Whincup shouldnt have passed, Roland even admitted that. But technically Whincup shouldnt have been stopped by the SC. His race was screwed from that point if he stayed behind the SC and he knew that.

But then the officials had zero conviction that they'd done the right thing and called all the cars through to pick up Whincup because Triple 8 complained. Which just exacerbated their stuff ups. Incredible really, surely heads roll for the complete sham? Most other sports would stand people down for such a stuff up.

[banksie]

Originally Posted by DX20VT

I had it recorded and it took me going back and forth a few times to figure it out.

From what I could tell,

On lap 12 Jamie was the leader.
He pitted just before the safety car and put in about 40L of fuel.
Came out down the back somewhere, leader of those who had already pitted.
Safety car came out and all those in front of Jamie pitted, S Mac put in around 90L of fuel,
Jamie and the previously pitted cars passed them while they were in the pits as they stopped for a lot longer putting in 90L of fuel.
That put jamie back into first and Lee 2nd, but both requiring a longer second stop.

When he came up behind the safety car, he was the leader of the race.
Lee was second.
Whincups mistake was passing the safety car,
Race controls was letting everyone else through after that.?

Wrong. When Whincup was behind/passing the safety car, he was still behind those in the pits, eg. McLaughlin and van Gisbergen.

By passing the safety car, Whincup was able to get passed McLaughlin and van Gisbergen etc, but Holdsworth and others were trapped.

In the third of the lap the safety car had done, had any other cars been waved passed by the safety car? Did race control not look at the timing and see car 17 in first place? All the drivers could see race controls mistake, shame race control couldn't.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by DX20VT

I had it recorded and it took me going back and forth a few times to figure it out.

From what I could tell,

On lap 12 Jamie was the leader.
He pitted just before the safety car and put in about 40L of fuel.
Came out down the back somewhere, leader of those who had already pitted.
Safety car came out and all those in front of Jamie pitted, S Mac put in around 90L of fuel,
Jamie and the previously pitted cars passed them while they were in the pits as they stopped for a lot longer putting in 90L of fuel.
That put jamie back into first and Lee 2nd, but both requiring a longer second stop.

When he came up behind the safety car, he was the leader of the race.
Lee was second.
Whincups mistake was passing the safety car,
Race controls was letting everyone else through after that.?

Give that man a cigar! Yep mate, that is exactly what happened.

For those struggling with this, let's spell out how it works:

• Safety Car boards & flags are called and SC conditions come into play - this does NOT mean that the SC has gone out on track though
• In a relatively low-risk situation such as a car stopped on track, the normal practice is for the SC to be held at pit exit waiting for a gap in front of the leader - race control runs this via radio
• As the leader approaches (I'd suggest at Puke that it would most likely be as the leader exits the hairpin) the SC is scrambled out onto the circuit to be ready to pick up the leader
• If the leader pits (as happened at Puke - along with a bunch of other cars) those that do not pit (who are still at close to race pace) go past the pit lane on track and arrive at the SC before the previous race leader
• Bear in mind as well that in this case, 88 (on track) went past 17 (stopped in pit lane) and crossed the stripe, taking back the lead of the race
• 88 was now leading the race and was correctly grabbed by the SC on the back straight (another indication by the way that the SC had been called for 17 & had to wait some time due to the pit stops is that it had got as far as the back chute)
• Whincup, possibly realising that the others who DID pit under the SC had gained a big advantage over him (more fuel in the pit stop, meaning shorter stops under "live" conditions later) or not realising that 17 had pitted, went past the SC in error - either way, poor communication to him from the team in hindsight
• Race Control then made a really big error by waving all those in front of 17 past the SC - categorically screwed all their races.
• Those in front of 17 would have suffered without the race control mistake though as they had stopped under "live" conditions and 17 plus the others that pitted under SC had used the opportunity to take on bigger fuel loads and therefore have shorter stops later in the race
• Hope that all makes sense

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by banksie

Wrong. When Whincup was behind/passing the safety car, he was still behind those in the pits, eg. McLaughlin and van Gisbergen.

By passing the safety car, Whincup was able to get passed McLaughlin and van Gisbergen etc, but Holdsworth and others were trapped.

In the third of the lap the safety car had done, had any other cars been waved passed by the safety car? Did race control not look at the timing and see car 17 in first place? All the drivers could see race controls mistake, shame race control couldn't.

Sorry mate, you've got it wrong - DX20VT is right on the money. Whincup was in front of those in the pits as he had driven past them on the race track whilst they were stopped in the pits.

No other cars would have been waved through in that initial ⅓ of a lap done by the SC as all of them in front of 88 had pitted, allowing 88 to pass them and take back the lead of the race.

17 was in 1st place when the SC was called but lost 1st place when it pitted and 88 drove past the pit lane out on the race track.

[johnh875]

No, the positions on the side of the screen showed Whincup in 13th or so when the SC was called, then after he passed it and crossed the control line while the other cars were still in the pits taking on a heap of fuel he suddenly popped up into 1st, while Holdsworth was still back in 14th behind the SC. McLaughlin etc got out of the pit ahead of the SC and joined the train in P2 onwards.

Race control letting Holdsworth etc past to go around would have put things back to how they were before the SC (ignoring Whincup), which is great except the first 12 cars have had a free pitstop with a big fuel load.

Seeing as Reynolds car could have been left on track for the rest of the race if we were in the old days, race control's handling of the situation has had a big impact on the race result. If they had held the SC for another lap JW, LH and co would have gotten back to the lead, unless the pitting teams realised this and cut back on the fuel. On the other hand I'm not really comfortable with cars running at full speed under full course yellows.

The whole system needs an overhaul from the ground up, including a clear distinction between retrieving a broken car and emergency response.

[Lukin]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Sorry mate, you've got it wrong - DX20VT is right on the money. Whincup was in front of those in the pits as he had driven past them on the race track whilst they were stopped in the pits.

No other cars would have been waved through in that initial ⅓ of a lap done by the SC as all of them in front of 88 had pitted, allowing 88 to pass them and take back the lead of the race.

17 was in 1st place when the SC was called but lost 1st place when it pitted and 88 drove past the pit lane out on the race track.

Incorrect

http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6438280...7.70Y/Chart?36

Look at car 5, was 14th before everyone stopped, 11th once everyone had stopped on Lap 14. Whincup was only in the lead on L14 because he passed the safety car and was able to get back to the start finish line and beat SM and SVG out of the pits. LH was doing 80 km/h behind the SC and never had a chance to get back and beat those guys out of the pits.

What you said SHOULD have happened. JW and LH should have been in the lead without the poor deployment of the SC.

Before the SC JW/ LH were about 55s behind of SM/SVG. The SC deployed into the gap between Those two groups. It slowed down LH/JW and allowed SVG/SM to get in and out of the pits without losing position.

If LH had been the leader than getting waved around would put him almost a lap ahead. But it didn’t, his position didn’t change when we was waved around did it?
When LH was first car behind the SC he was in 11th and almost a lap down on JW/SVG/SM. He was waved through to get the pack in order.

JW muddied the waters slightly by passing the SC. Without this he would have restarted 10th, 1 spot in front of LH.
JW passing the SC did not effect the way the SC deployed or the fact that SM/SVG got huge gains under the SC.

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Lukin

However the decision to deploy at that exact time (picking up the cars in 10th) and then hold up the first car that arrived was terrible. And if they didn’t know who the leader was, or what was going to happen, at that point they are useless.
Given the incident, they screwed half the field for nothing really. There was no danger given the position of car 9. They should have let it run for another lap under With the SC on standby, the pack would have sorted themselves out.

I can't agree with this - number one priority when talking about a safety car should be exactly that....safety. Not competition or entertainment. If a safety car is needed, it should be deployed immediately. If safety car deployment can wait a lap or two so as to not mess up the race, then the safety car wasn't needed in the first place.

And if it isn't "fair" to deploy immediately, then it isn't "fair" to deploy later....there's always going to be someone getting shafted, but that's something that should come down to bad luck, not a conscious decision to help one party but not another.

[Compromised]

"Safety car" is just a misnomer - until something changes regarding drivers speeding around the track under SC conditions, it's laughable to suggest it's deployment is for "safety".

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Compromised

"Safety car" is just a misnomer - until something changes regarding drivers speeding around the track under SC conditions, it's laughable to suggest it's deployment is for "safety".

Entertainment vehicle.

And you are absolutely correct, drivers setting nigh on green sectors in their haste to either get to the pits or then catch the entertainment vehicle prove it isn't about safety.

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

"Safety car" is just a misnomer - until something changes regarding drivers speeding around the track under SC conditions, it's laughable to suggest it's deployment is for "safety".

Exactly. That argument reinforces the same point as mine.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Tourer

[*]Bear in mind as well that in this case, 88 (on track) went past 17 (stopped in pit lane) and crossed the stripe, taking back the lead of the race[*]88 was now leading the race and was correctly grabbed by the SC on the back straight (another indication by the way that the SC had been called for 17 & had to wait some time due to the pit stops is that it had got as far as the back chute)

It is really hard to tell from the live footage, but I actually think those two things happened in the opposite order. Otherwise Holtsworth should have been on JW's hammer.

We can't tell from the broadcast when the physical SC car hit the track, and exactly when JW passes the SC can't be put into a race context because of that.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Whincup shouldnt have passed, .

Supposedly he was advised to by his engineer.

I said the same thing...

[mayhem]

RD said it was the driver's choice.

[Kixx]

Originally Posted by Lukin

Incorrect

http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6438280...7.70Y/Chart?36

Look at car 5, was 14th before everyone stopped, 11th once everyone had stopped on Lap 14. Whincup was only in the lead on L14 because he passed the safety car and was able to get back to the start finish line and beat SM and SVG out of the pits. LH was doing 80 km/h behind the SC and never had a chance to get back and beat those guys out of the pits.

What you said SHOULD have happened. JW and LH should have been in the lead without the poor deployment of the SC.

Before the SC JW/ LH were about 55s behind of SM/SVG. The SC deployed into the gap between Those two groups. It slowed down LH/JW and allowed SVG/SM to get in and out of the pits without losing position.

If LH had been the leader than getting waved around would put him almost a lap ahead. But it didn’t, his position didn’t change when we was waved around did it?
When LH was first car behind the SC he was in 11th and almost a lap down on JW/SVG/SM. He was waved through to get the pack in order.

JW muddied the waters slightly by passing the SC. Without this he would have restarted 10th, 1 spot in front of LH.
JW passing the SC did not effect the way the SC deployed or the fact that SM/SVG got huge gains under the SC.

Spot on!

They did a terrible job of explaining this in the telecast, even after the race when they had the time

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by mayhem

RD said it was the driver's choice.

"While I knew I wasn’t the leader of the race, and despite my engineer confidently telling me over the radio to not get held up by the safety car, the lights in front of me were orange"

Yes JW is in control of his own destiny but you do have to also trust the people around you also.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by leothedrummer

I can't agree with this - number one priority when talking about a safety car should be exactly that....safety. Not competition or entertainment. If a safety car is needed, it should be deployed immediately. If safety car deployment can wait a lap or two so as to not mess up the race, then the safety car wasn't needed in the first place.

And if it isn't "fair" to deploy immediately, then it isn't "fair" to deploy later....there's always going to be someone getting shafted, but that's something that should come down to bad luck, not a conscious decision to help one party but not another.

Don't disagree at all, which why the system needs to be revised. We've seen the safety car wait to pick up the leader after some reasonably big crashes in the past, yet here they could have waited but didn't. The SC was still needed for the recovery, when it was called before the car got moving again that is, and this one was not typical in that more often cars are stopped in dangerous positions.

I think they need to have more options to use, absolute focus on safety where necessary, but where urgent response is not needed a system to minimise interference with the race result.

[S griffin]

It’s a shame that had to happen. Hopefully it can be avoided in the future. It’s always best when it picks up the leader. Of course it’s harder with dangerous situations, but not all of them are, some aren’t even needed. The SC does some good, but needs it’s problems to be ironed out

[Axeman444]

The issue is Drivers are incentivised to race back to the Safety Car, remove that and the problem goes away.

Code 60 anyone?

[banksie]

Speedcafe have done an analysis of where the cars were when the safety car was called. Link

Might help to reduce some of the confusion around here.

[slugger]

Originally Posted by banksie

Speedcafe have done an analysis of where the cars were when the safety car was called. Link

Might help to reduce some of the confusion around here.

It is no longer an analysis of fact when the author injects their own opinion.
It is therefore, an opinion piece, which is less credible.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

"While I knew I wasn’t the leader of the race, and despite my engineer confidently telling me over the radio to not get held up by the safety car, the lights in front of me were orange"

Doesn't that translate as 'RC got it right at the time and JW ignored the signal'? I'm presuming as in other series, Green means pass, orange means don't. Even if he wasn't the leader, the orange light might well have been for other safety reasons as in needing to get the cars under control NOW.

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Code 60 anyone?

Or FCY, whatever you call it. As a marshal, I've experienced both, they work well.