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Old 25 Jul 2019, 08:49 (Ref:3919276)   #76
one five five
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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
Other than the "war" with Super Touring that is getting to be quite ancient history now (and in which both sides of the fence "took aim"), not convinced that supercars HAS taken "aim at fellow Aussie categories" really.

Supercars has also done a lot of things that has benefited other motorsport categories here, due to the flow-on effect of the changes made.

I know that you see the organisation as the devil incarnate and I don't think that anything I or anyone else says will change your view but you're entitled to your view and anyone else is entitled to not agree with your view or to challenge it.
Supercars didn't take aim at PROCAR? Supercars hasn't taken aim at TCR by supposedly telling the Adelaide organisers to give them the lemon sarse?

I think we both know one side was doing far more of the slinging in the 'ancient war', they even used our most famous event as the bargaining chip, yet these days had adopted the history of the race that apparently treated them so badly

What has Supercars ever done to benefit other categories that didn't as a by-product benefit themselves (ie....have they done anything for categories not on their support bill?)

If those involved at Supercars over the last 20 years had any passion for Aussie motor racing as a whole, outside of their own bubble, then they did a great job of hiding it.
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Old 25 Jul 2019, 15:25 (Ref:3919306)   #77
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Other than the "war" with Super Touring that is getting to be quite ancient history now (and in which both sides of the fence "took aim"), not convinced that supercars HAS taken "aim at fellow Aussie categories" really.
The one thing that sticks in my memory of Supercars 'having a go' was their running a compulsory test session that from memory clashed with the Bathurst 12 hour, thus robbing the 12 hour of the drawcard V8 drivers who take part.
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Old 25 Jul 2019, 21:13 (Ref:3919359)   #78
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Agreed. That was daft.
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Old 25 Jul 2019, 23:15 (Ref:3919362)   #79
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Slightly similar, wasn't there an intention for drivers to compete in NZv8's that was squashed or something about 6 years ago?
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Old 26 Jul 2019, 05:19 (Ref:3919379)   #80
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Supercars didn't take aim at PROCAR? Supercars hasn't taken aim at TCR by supposedly telling the Adelaide organisers to give them the lemon sarse?
I remember Procar taking aim at Supercars after choosing to walk away from the Supercar support program so any "taking aim" by Supercars would have been a return serve, not an initial aim.

TCR & Adelaide is interesting, Supercars has not "taken aim" at TCR, has not rubbished the product etc and from statements made by both organisations, is open to having TCR run at Supercar events. Adelaide (supposed) veto (not confirmed by anyone directly involved yet I think) could simply be that the preferred events for TCR in Supercars view are elsewhere.

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I think we both know one side was doing far more of the slinging in the 'ancient war', they even used our most famous event as the bargaining chip, yet these days had adopted the history of the race that apparently treated them so badly
There's come a watershed moment in many sports where the performers are looking to share more (or at all) in the revenue pie - the teams got to that point, the famous event and its broadcaster refused to budge so the teams went elsewhere - hardly taking aim at another category in any way HOWEVER the V8 vs 2L "war" had plenty of barbs thrown in both directions by both parties.

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What has Supercars ever done to benefit other categories that didn't as a by-product benefit themselves (ie....have they done anything for categories not on their support bill?)
  • Put the pressure on CAMS to remove "sponsor" licences - benefitting all of Australian motorspor
  • Put pressure on CAMS to stop charging both entrant and driver licence fees to single driver teams - benefitting all of Australian motorsport
  • Introduced season entries (against CAMS wishes at the time) making it much easier for competitors to enter a series and for series organisers to plan - benefitting all of Australian motor sport and now a requirement in CAMS category management documenation.
  • Specified and paid a fee for timing software that enabled Natsoft to have a sytem that could for the 1st time be run from a laptop and making it easier/cheaper for any Aus event to be run and recorded - benefitting all of Australian motorspor
  • Developed pit lane safety processes including reduced speed limits benefittingn all of Australian motor sport
  • Provided a higher number of full-time employment positions in motorsport giving a greater pool of expereinced and qualified motorsport personnel - benefitting all of Australian motorsport
  • Provided simulation programs and data for circuit safety infrastrucutre needs along with supporting CAMS in improving infrastructure
  • Exposed motor sport to a larger and wider corporate base, increasing awareness of the sport generally and the people in it
Could go on but I'd be here for hours and this thread would be VERY long.

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If those involved at Supercars over the last 20 years had any passion for Aussie motor racing as a whole, outside of their own bubble, then they did a great job of hiding it.
Many of them did (& still do) and if you spoke to them at all, you'd know that. Some (such as GRM) have shown it plenty from a public point of view. Not all of them, I give you that and certainly their public utterances are about promoting what they do so naturally, that's what tends to be seen.

I'm not saying that the organisation has been pure as driven snow all the time but it's been in place for over 20 years now and the upsides far outweigh the downsides IMHO.
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Old 26 Jul 2019, 11:37 (Ref:3919424)   #81
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Not getting in your face but what is the thought behind that? Obviously we've seen it work in such series as AGT and Supertouring and there are definitely pros and cons but I feel that ownership by people who understand the sport would deliver better outcomes than ownership by a company such as Archer, with no real understanding of the sport, other than the balance sheet.
I just have an issue, and reading some of the posts following my previous one, others do as well, with a participant being a majority owner. Penske, Dane, the Kellys, whoever; there is always the risk, whether real or perceived, that they will make the rules to favour their own interests. That's why I'm against an active participant being a majority owner.
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Old 26 Jul 2019, 11:41 (Ref:3919426)   #82
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Roger didn't need such a thing to slant things in his favour.

It's a ridiculous idea. Look at the composition of the board.
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Old 30 Jul 2019, 13:21 (Ref:3920402)   #83
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I remember Procar taking aim at Supercars after choosing to walk away from the Supercar support program so any "taking aim" by Supercars would have been a return serve, not an initial aim.

TCR & Adelaide is interesting, Supercars has not "taken aim" at TCR, has not rubbished the product etc and from statements made by both organisations, is open to having TCR run at Supercar events. Adelaide (supposed) veto (not confirmed by anyone directly involved yet I think) could simply be that the preferred events for TCR in Supercars view are elsewhere.
Not sure how PROCAR running its own events constitutes ‘taking aim’ Touer? Especially in light of your justification of avesco’s actions regarding Bathurst in 1996/97?

The Adelaide binning of TCR is a slam dunk Supercars veto, to try and hide from that doesn’t reflect well on anyone.

V8SA and Adelaide have a bit of a history when it comes to trying to muzzle other motorsport categories who are trying to support Australian Motorsport. Remember V8SA trying to pull the AVE/SBS cameras from filming procar races in Adelaide in 2002?

Or V8SA trying to cancel Procars press conference to announce the Bathurst 24 hour?

Add in V8SA blocking drivers from taking part in NZ V8s, 2015 B12 HR and attempting to block drivers in TCR this season, it paints dirty history of an organisation that has no concern for the damage it causes to Australian Motorsport in its quest for self gain
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Old 30 Jul 2019, 13:35 (Ref:3920406)   #84
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Supercars never blocked anybody from NZV8s, individual teams did. Given some of the crashes over there I am not l totally surprised that well paid drivers might have to abide their contract and not take on another dangerous activity. There are some fast and wild tracks over there and safety isn't what it is on home soil.

Can you tell us which driver Supercars blocked from racing in TCR?

Either way, if you are on salary with Shell, you are going to have a contract that says you may not go and work for Mobil at the same time. Some may even have a gardening clause, although I think these are viewed as a restraint of trade and unenforceable.

It is plain as day that a driver contracted to one team or brand is going to need permission to do racing outside of that contract, and not everybody wants to give that permission.

It is just pertinent. How do you explain to you sponsor that you lost your star driver for the year because you let him go race overseas?
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Old 30 Jul 2019, 22:31 (Ref:3920466)   #85
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Not sure how PROCAR running its own events constitutes ‘taking aim’ Touer? Especially in light of your justification of avesco’s actions regarding Bathurst in 1996/97?
It wasn't running the events per se that "took aim" D.T - it was a myriad of statements made by the Procar owner repeatedly disparaging the supercar series and building up his own (including on this forum allegedly). He was perfectly entitled to do that of course but in doing so "took aim" at supercars and for sure serve was then returned.
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The Adelaide binning of TCR is a slam dunk Supercars veto, to try and hide from that doesn’t reflect well on anyone.
Well we don't know that & nor does anyone outside the discussions - although supercars themselves have admitted to "raising an objection". Many assumptions have been made in the media and you're making an assumption in what you say here but none of those assumptions may be accurate.
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V8SA and Adelaide have a bit of a history when it comes to trying to muzzle other motorsport categories who are trying to support Australian Motorsport. Remember V8SA trying to pull the AVE/SBS cameras from filming procar races in Adelaide in 2002?
You're re-inventing history here and getting it completely and utterly wrong. V8SA did not "try to pull" those cameras from filming procar races. The cameras WERE stopped from filming the crowd from pit lane during supercar sessions though. The full grandstand for the supercar sessions would have looked better for the procar TV than the ⅓ full grandstand when the procar series was on track & the cameras were caught red-handed in pit lane doing just that - against the agreement enabling them to be at the event at all. You also neglect to mention that the event and supercars had a cast-iron contract with the broadcaster of the time for exclusive coverage and filming - supercars convinced the broadcaster on procar's behalf to allow procar's contracted TV production crew to film at the event and the broadcaster did so with conditions on what could be filmed only after some hard work by supercar - procar and its TV production company then attempted to breach that agreement, on the first day of the event & were caught in the act.
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Or V8SA trying to cancel Procars press conference to announce the Bathurst 24 hour?
Honestly don't remember that but if it was at a supercar event, with much more media in attendance than procar would have at their own events, then doing so would be taking the Michael, particularly when the procar owner kept running down the supercar event at the mountain in the process of promoting his own.
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Add in V8SA blocking drivers from taking part in NZ V8s, 2015 B12 HR and attempting to block drivers in TCR this season, it paints dirty history of an organisation that has no concern for the damage it causes to Australian Motorsport in its quest for self gain
Last time I checked NZ V8s don't compete in Australia so not sure what that has to do with this discussion but like Mixer, I don't believe that V8SA took any steps there. The whole B12Hr / V8SA practice day clash in whatever year that happened was an example I agree with - very poor decision by V8SA to do that - and like I've said above, they're not perfect by any means. Allegedly blocking drivers in TCR this season is a new one on me too - you'll have to give us more info on that as it sounds somewhat far-fetched I must say.
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Old 1 Aug 2019, 09:43 (Ref:3920636)   #86
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It wasn't running the events per se that "took aim" D.T - it was a myriad of statements made by the Procar owner repeatedly disparaging the supercar series and building up his own (including on this forum allegedly).
Which disparaging comments were these from the Procar owner?

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Well we don't know that & nor does anyone outside the discussions - although supercars themselves have admitted to "raising an objection". Many assumptions have been made in the media and you're making an assumption in what you say here but none of those assumptions may be accurate.
So V8SA have confirmed raising an objection, multiple sources have reported a 'block', followed by a hasty announcement of the addition of the AGP for TCR. Yet you are going to stay on the fence and say we shouldn't jump to conclusions?

Really?

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Honestly don't remember that but if it was at a supercar event, with much more media in attendance than procar would have at their own events, then doing so would be taking the Michael, particularly when the procar owner kept running down the supercar event at the mountain in the process of promoting his own.
It was an SA Government event wasn't it?

Any examples of the Procar owner running down the V8SA event?
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Old 1 Aug 2019, 11:23 (Ref:3920644)   #87
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Reading all this brings back memories of the Procar forums. Shame they no longer exist. They were a good record of the Procar era.
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Old 1 Aug 2019, 22:05 (Ref:3920732)   #88
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Reading all this brings back memories of the Procar forums. Shame they no longer exist. They were a good record of the Procar era.
Yep, easy for someone to ask for a "record" (particularly when social media as we know didn't exist at the time, but many of us were around then to remember). Even the posts on here from the Procar owner seem to have disappeared - although some of the threads are still findable in search.
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Old 1 Aug 2019, 22:18 (Ref:3920733)   #89
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So V8SA have confirmed raising an objection, multiple sources have reported a 'block', followed by a hasty announcement of the addition of the AGP for TCR. Yet you are going to stay on the fence and say we shouldn't jump to conclusions?
Nothing "hasty" about the announcement of TCR at AGP, had been under discussion for some time. Re Adelaide, I re-iterate what I first said about the alleged block or veto (different to an objection) and that is the statements by both TCR and V8SA that they are looking at running at V8SA events - the mix of events may not include Adelaide but could still be a very good mix - we really won't know until the V8SA calendar with supports comes out.

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It was an SA Government event wasn't it?
Like I said, don't recall the media conference that you're specifically referring to but I take if from this post that it was at the Clipsal 500? In that case it would likely have been an SA govt decision to close down the media conference. State govts get VERY sensitive about other events in other states being promoted using the platform of one of their events. Trying to hold such a launch media conference for an event in NSW, using the platform of an SA govt event, would at best be naive.

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Which disparaging comments were these from the Procar owner?
Any examples of the Procar owner running down the V8SA event?
See my post above replying to Rich07.
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Old 18 Aug 2019, 07:45 (Ref:3923163)   #90
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Interesting that the architect of the last media deal & one time V8 el supremo James Warburton has gone back to 7 - what does that mean, if anything for the ownership of the Supercar business ?

https://www.adnews.com.au/news/james...ven-west-media
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