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Old 20 Jul 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3918609)   #3586
S griffin
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And also plenty in GP2 when they used ground effect
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Old 20 Jul 2019, 23:17 (Ref:3918659)   #3587
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My memory of ground effects F1 is that the only position changes anywhere near the front of the field were due to mechanical problems and driver errors.There was virtually no on track passing.Will have to look through Autocourse lap charts for confirmation.
Ground effect of that era was really quite different to what is being proposed now. Lot more knowledge now & the software exists to run realistic simulations.

I don’t think it’ll be a repeat of those days & as others have said, it DOES work well in other current series.
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Old 20 Jul 2019, 23:23 (Ref:3918660)   #3588
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I was out last night with a few people who have been around Motorsport generally for decades - the whole lot had stopped watching F1 as a “mustn’t miss” experience but now just catch the odd race. Enthusiasm gonski.

Every one of them complained about the current tyres resulting in drivers striking it around rather than actually, you know, racing.

We talked about 2021 quite a bit with enthusiasm sparking up - based on my straw (red wine) poll - 2021 can’t come soon enough.
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Old 20 Aug 2019, 16:20 (Ref:3923519)   #3589
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Ferrari aren't too happy about standard parts, for 2021.

https://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/145470
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Old 20 Aug 2019, 18:21 (Ref:3923526)   #3590
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Well they wouldn’t, would they? Then again non standard parts haven’t got them a title of late
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Old 20 Aug 2019, 22:44 (Ref:3923558)   #3591
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I assume it's all part of the negotiations for the 2021 regulations. Ferrari, like everyone, has an agenda that drives their actions.

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Old 22 Aug 2019, 15:55 (Ref:3923763)   #3592
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FOM's 2021 design hits the wind tunnel.

that diffuser looks crazy and if they can actually push through a set of regs that reduces the wake as much as this test is suggesting then all the power to them.

whether it works or not remains to be seen but i applaud the more involved and proactive approach compared to the prior owners/administration.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...K7PjTBxtS.html
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Old 22 Aug 2019, 19:47 (Ref:3923796)   #3593
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
FOM's 2021 design hits the wind tunnel.

that diffuser looks crazy and if they can actually push through a set of regs that reduces the wake as much as this test is suggesting then all the power to them.

whether it works or not remains to be seen but i applaud the more involved and proactive approach compared to the prior owners/administration.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...K7PjTBxtS.html
I like the approach they are using to do this as well. I hope it gives the desired results!

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Old 23 Aug 2019, 12:46 (Ref:3923863)   #3594
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I hope that they have compared the F2 cars in the wind tunnel with their ideas.

Following on the results of the OWG in 2009; extremely poor; which is proudly quoted by Symonds and looking at the large three element front wing and collating it with Lewis' earlier observations that he believed that they had made very little advance in solving the current problems from a drivers' point of view, I am deeply skeptical.

Then add:

You might be wondering why the research and development teams haven’t put a second car behind the front car to test the wake. Symonds says that is “not necessary”.

Really!

Hope this lot are being paid at the end of the 2021 season following a practical demonstration of how good their changes are!

Last edited by wnut; 23 Aug 2019 at 12:55.
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Old 23 Aug 2019, 13:17 (Ref:3923871)   #3595
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That robot arm rake deal seems alright no?

Are they even able to run 2 cars on a rolling wind tunnel?
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Old 23 Aug 2019, 14:26 (Ref:3923880)   #3596
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
I hope that they have compared the F2 cars in the wind tunnel with their ideas.

Following on the results of the OWG in 2009; extremely poor; which is proudly quoted by Symonds and looking at the large three element front wing and collating it with Lewis' earlier observations that he believed that they had made very little advance in solving the current problems from a drivers' point of view, I am deeply skeptical.
They have had a rocky history. However, I tend to think it was the solutions that was put forth and less about the process. Then as today, I think they had a solution in mind first, and then looked to tweak it. So if the under body wing and associated large diffuser is the wrong idea, then maybe this new effort will not work either.

I also tend to think that things are better now than before. But no doubt, we can debate this forever and provide examples of driver who think it is better or not. At this point I am looking more toward the future. And I expect they have learned from what did or didn't work from prior efforts.

So the question is... what should they do differently this time? As you say.. run multiple cars in the tunnel?

Quote:
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Then add:

You might be wondering why the research and development teams haven’t put a second car behind the front car to test the wake. Symonds says that is “not necessary”.

Really!

Hope this lot are being paid at the end of the 2021 season following a practical demonstration of how good their changes are!
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
That robot arm rake deal seems alright no?

Are they even able to run 2 cars on a rolling wind tunnel?
So that is my thinking as well.

First, I think with the movable rake, they can pretty accurately measure what is going on behind the leading car. Ideally, yes, they should then run two back to back (in various configurations), but that leads to your question chilibowl about space.

The full article has lots of info. It says that teams typically run 60% models. But to view more of the wake effect in the same tunnel size, they went with a 50% model. So that gives them more space being the car to gather "wake" data.

Then if you wanted to run two cars, the models have to be even smaller. Which starts to create problems with trusting the results. When asked about running two cars in the tunnel the answer was (quote from article)...

Quote:
We did do that in 2008, with the overtaking studies we did then for 2009, and for that, we had to go down to a quarter scale model which really is getting too small. That is what negates us doing it. Even in a big tunnel like Sauber’s, you could only really run one configuration with the cars really very close. What we’re trying to do is use CFD as our real simulation tool and this is just the correlation.
So, no doubt they would love to run two models of appropriate size, but don't have a tunnel large enough. The focus is on CFD analysis and this tunnel data just helps them see if the CFD model is working (generating wake that matches reality). If they have correlation then they should be able to hopefully trust the CFD. Teams may be limited to tunnel and CFD time. This exercise would have no limits outside of budget allocated.

Richard
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Old 23 Aug 2019, 14:48 (Ref:3923882)   #3597
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I really don’t see why they can’t keep researching it. It’ll help them achieve the right target eventually. Still I have high hopes with the underbody downforce
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Old 23 Aug 2019, 17:02 (Ref:3923888)   #3598
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I really don’t see why they can’t keep researching it. It’ll help them achieve the right target eventually. Still I have high hopes with the underbody downforce
Not sure I understand. Keep researching what? Or rather... what stopped? I think there is an October deadline for setting the 2021 rules. So if this is in prep for that deadline, its gotta stop at some point before then.

Richard

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Old 23 Aug 2019, 19:48 (Ref:3923895)   #3599
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Keep researching how to make cars that produce close racing. You can’t just settle on one solution, you have to explore all avenues
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Old 23 Aug 2019, 20:04 (Ref:3923897)   #3600
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When Swift, one of the manufacturers competing for the 2012 IndyCar design, came up with the concept of the 'Mushroom Busters', to reduce the wake, something they had already been using in Fornula Nippon.

http://www.f1network.net/main/indy-r...37/swift-ideas
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