Is Super Cars Inc. Driving Up a Dead End Street

Casper · 12 Jul 2019, 13:21 (Ref:3917153)

How long can SC keep running out of date cars in the form of the Holden & Falcon before they have to call it quits and actually address the question of what to do next. Have the more informed members here any knowledge on this matter and where they might be going, is there actually a business plan to replace the present majority of the field and if so with what? It is becoming a concern I would think as the cars will be at least 3 years old at the end of next year and the rumours of a Camaro entry may be short circuited as well by news that it may be killed off by 2023. https://www.thedrive.com/news/28680/...planned-report

I think SC have been a victim of circumstance here in a perfect storm and the plan it runs on now has become defunct due to circumstances beyond it's control. I know this has been sort of discussed before but that was over a year ago when things were not so dire with the age of the cars. A lot of people have a lot of money wrapped up in the series and I bet they are asking questions as well.

Forda · 12 Jul 2019, 14:03 (Ref:3917160)

Making an unwanted FWD hatchback into a "Supercar" has to be the biggest joke ever played on this category.

That turning around this predicament onto the RWD V8 Mustang for fitting their rules is not only an oxymoron, but also a travesty.

The rules certainly need some sort of adjustment - they are arguably worse than where Group C was back in 1983, a year before it was aborted.

M91 · 12 Jul 2019, 14:16 (Ref:3917163)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

How long can SC keep running out of date cars in the form of the Holden & Falcon before they have to call it quits and actually address the question of what to do next. Have the more informed members here any knowledge on this matter and where they might be going, is there actually a business plan to replace the present majority of the field and if so with what? It is becoming a concern I would think as the cars will be at least 3 years old at the end of next year and the rumours of a Camaro entry may be short circuited as well by news that it may be killed off by 2023. https://www.thedrive.com/news/28680/...planned-report

I think SC have been a victim of circumstance here in a perfect storm and the plan it runs on now has become defunct due to circumstances beyond it's control. I know this has been sort of discussed before but that was over a year ago when things were not so dire with the age of the cars. A lot of people have a lot of money wrapped up in the series and I bet they are asking questions as well.

Um... Falcon?

The only outdated model is the Altima

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't understand the point of your post

Forda · 12 Jul 2019, 14:36 (Ref:3917169)

Quote:

Originally Posted by M91

Um... Falcon? The

The only outdated model is the Altima

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't understand the point of your post

Maybe you don't realise the only RWD V8 currently being sold locally is the Mustang, which is relevant to the series; and it is currently being penalised for doing exactly that (i.e. strictly fitting into the rules).

Mixer · 13 Jul 2019, 01:05 (Ref:3917248)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forda

Maybe you don't realise the only RWD V8 currently being sold locally is the Mustang, which is relevant to the series; and it is currently being penalised for doing exactly that (i.e. strictly fitting into the rules).

No, its been penalised because it has made a joke of the rules and shouldn't have been allowed as presented.

Merc, Nissan, Falcon, VF and ZB all used as many production parts as possible and therefore were a strong likeness of the original car, and engine and specific team performance aside, were all relatively equal and suited the competition.

Other than issues created with the height of the roof Ford and Penske completely took the ****, to the point where everything on the car is bespoke, because they shrunk and repositioned all the headlights and so on, extended the rear deck for a double wing etc, purely for aero benefit. The road going Mustang is a mean looking thing but its front has the aero of a brick. The Camaro will too.

Meanwhile the Marc car and TA2 look more like the road car, and Penske has kicked an own goal by creating a car so far out of the intentions of the rules and showing just how outdated the testing regime was, that I am not sure anybody will bother homologating another car unless it is addressed. People have ****ed and moaned about 888 for years, but the combined resources of Penske & Ford Motorsport easily eclipses the whole Supercars field.

Supercars badly needed Ford coming back, but I think in hindsight that Dave Stuart may not have been expert enough or internationally connected enough to do the role he was tasked with - and I think we're seeing that addressed now Adrian Burgess and Campbell Little, two very smart guys with strong backgrounds inside and outside the series.

Meanwhile even with adjustments, Mustang drivers of talent can repeatedly drive through the field, and the car is flattering those of lesser ability.

Scotty is going to have the series locked up ridiculously early, and it isn't good for the series. If not for the friendly fire incidents and inconsistency, nobody else would even get a look in.

To be fair, Scotty won in a GRM Holden, Volvo, the DJRTP Falcon and is killing everybody in the Mustang. He deserves all the credit for putting it together no matter what, but the issues around the car do take the shine off. Somewhat like Skaife in the GTR.

But it also seems that DJRTP are spending more to run their 2 cars than the next 3 teams put together, and this isn't really good.

After a remarkable period of stability I have shades of Group A or current F1. "Creative" rule interpretations, unsustainable spending, and a runaway champion half way through the season.

The only interest might be whether the Mustang can be beaten at Bathurst.

Meanwhile I've been watching TCR most of the year, and haven't bothered to watch a Supercar race in its entirety.

Umai Naa · 13 Jul 2019, 01:38 (Ref:3917252)

Spot on.

Forda · 13 Jul 2019, 01:43 (Ref:3917253)

Hardly.

Compromised · 13 Jul 2019, 03:21 (Ref:3917257)

Do Penske make and enforce the rules?

They're more powerful than I thought!!!!

mayhem · 13 Jul 2019, 04:06 (Ref:3917260)

I think Mixer nailed it. And I'm a Ford fan of sorts. Roland said to go build a better mousetrap, Penske and Ford took up the challenge, and the end result is, it looks nothing like the original mousetrap.

Casper · 13 Jul 2019, 04:52 (Ref:3917264)

Can we keep the discussion on the age of the Oz derived from a production car race cars they being Falcon and Holden. By the end of next year any relevance to anything is absolutely out the window. They won't be even vaguely connected to any manufacturer in the way they were and by racing standards could be said to be on the age old pension (debatable). New cars can be built but the relevance and all that SC stood for no longer exists.

Mixer · 13 Jul 2019, 05:36 (Ref:3917269)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

Can we keep the discussion on the age of the Oz derived from a production car race cars they being Falcon and Holden. By the end of next year any relevance to anything is absolutely out the window. They won't be even vaguely connected to any manufacturer in the way they were and by racing standards could be said to be on the age old pension (debatable). New cars can be built but the relevance and all that SC stood for no longer exists.

The Mustang proves it doesn't have to be Holden v Ford but it does have to be market relevant, and it has to be exciting, BUT to entice any new entrant the rules and procedures have to be sorted out so someone else doesn't spend a motza to end up embarrassed.

I feel like other than the parity gripe, what the show is missing for me is the rawness of the cars 15 or so years ago, over time they've become so refined and so equal that we're missing the manhandling (especially since COTF) that I used to enjoy watching so much.

Have been watching some 2003-2009 races lately and I kinda just feel the more refined and "perfect" the cars got, the less there was between the cars and the more processional it got.

To look at the way raw newcomers like Lowndes and Ambrose could be so fast without a lot of experience is just not really something you could see today. Back then in a good car if you had the raw talent you could do something special.

Somehow now TCR feels a bit like that. A bit unpredictable, especially with the rear tyre temperature, and the results can be a bit all over the place. Yes its more artificial with sporting parity rather than technical parity, but does that affect the show?

There are other series like Argentinian TC series that survived the manufacturers leaving. Its not to say its impossible but the series is at a cross-roads. The cars have got too expensive and they are on rails. Things like NZV8s, TA2 and Marc all show that you can put something on the track with good speed and great sound without going to the high cost of a current Supercar - particularly in the chassis and engine departments.

Having multiple teams iterating on these parts for incremental gains that make no difference to the show is a big problem. There's a line to draw between allowing teams to innovate and allowing spending that is detrimental to the series.

The problem I see is that the decisions that could have been taken to curb spending in the past - like further controlled parts, single supplier for chassis, crate motors etc, all go against the wishes of so many teams that are heavily invested in staff and infrastructure to build cars, and so in some ways they are their own worst enemies.

There's no doubt, in an alternate universe, a field of Marc Mazda 3s, Focuses, Golfs etc running around with crate V8s making great noise, covered in the livery of brands we know and drivers we support, would pull a crowd. But it is more akin to sports sedans than V8s as we know them.

Sorry for the wall of text.

one five five · 13 Jul 2019, 06:59 (Ref:3917289)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mixer

No, its been penalised because it has made a joke of the rules and shouldn't have been allowed as presented.

Merc, Nissan, Falcon, VF and ZB all used as many production parts as possible and therefore were a strong likeness of the original car, and engine and specific team performance aside, were all relatively equal and suited the competition.

Other than issues created with the height of the roof Ford and Penske completely took the ****, to the point where everything on the car is bespoke, because they shrunk and repositioned all the headlights and so on, extended the rear deck for a double wing etc, purely for aero benefit. The road going Mustang is a mean looking thing but its front has the aero of a brick. The Camaro will too.

Meanwhile the Marc car and TA2 look more like the road car, and Penske has kicked an own goal by creating a car so far out of the intentions of the rules and showing just how outdated the testing regime was, that I am not sure anybody will bother homologating another car unless it is addressed. People have ****ed and moaned about 888 for years, but the combined resources of Penske & Ford Motorsport easily eclipses the whole Supercars field.

Supercars badly needed Ford coming back, but I think in hindsight that Dave Stuart may not have been expert enough or internationally connected enough to do the role he was tasked with - and I think we're seeing that addressed now Adrian Burgess and Campbell Little, two very smart guys with strong backgrounds inside and outside the series.

Meanwhile even with adjustments, Mustang drivers of talent can repeatedly drive through the field, and the car is flattering those of lesser ability.

Scotty is going to have the series locked up ridiculously early, and it isn't good for the series. If not for the friendly fire incidents and inconsistency, nobody else would even get a look in.

To be fair, Scotty won in a GRM Holden, Volvo, the DJRTP Falcon and is killing everybody in the Mustang. He deserves all the credit for putting it together no matter what, but the issues around the car do take the shine off. Somewhat like Skaife in the GTR.

But it also seems that DJRTP are spending more to run their 2 cars than the next 3 teams put together, and this isn't really good.

After a remarkable period of stability I have shades of Group A or current F1. "Creative" rule interpretations, unsustainable spending, and a runaway champion half way through the season.

The only interest might be whether the Mustang can be beaten at Bathurst.

Meanwhile I've been watching TCR most of the year, and haven't bothered to watch a Supercar race in its entirety.

What production parts did the VF, ZB, Merc, Nissan, Falcon etc.. have?