Knickerbrook chicane

[blue nose]

You have lost me on that one?

[blue nose]

Thanks DB I stand corrected.
I have never used KB without the chicane,But drivers who I know did enjoy the experiance.

[mcurtis26]

I know chicanes are naturally unpopular with racers, but Oulton was left with little choice on whether or not to put the chicane in at Knickerbrook. The deaths of Andrew Colson and Paul Warwick at the corner was leading to calls for the circuit to change or be closed. These were lead by Derek Warwick, who had considerable influence at the time, and the Chester coroner also criticsed the circuit's lack of safety emasures, particularly the run off and entry speed into Knickerbrook. I know I would rather have a circuit, albeit with chicanes, than no circuit at all. Any series of fatal accidents at a track will always lead to changes, as was clear post Imola 1994. The sport will nearly always yield to outside influences when the newspapers are criticising them following an accident, they have little choice. However, I am not a racer, and I know this thread is directed at them in particular.

[JimW]

Originally posted by blue nose
Any chicane is a stop and go penalty

Not, in my opinion, all of them. Thruxton makes for superb overtaking opportunities. Obviously I am talking from a spectator's viewpoint, not that of a driver.

More like Thruxton, fewer like Knickerbrook perhaps? Now who in the circuit design thread can analyse what makes one different from the other?

Regards

Jim

[Vicky B]

Well said mcurtis26.

Chicanes for racers may make the track less appealing but safety is of the utmost importance too.

I am related to the Warwicks and only last year did I have the courage to go down to Knickerbrook as I hate the circuit.

For you racers out there I can understand the thrill and buzz of going flat out but please remember those of us who are left behind after a fatal accident.

[JnrJnr]

For me, I think chicanes have the potential to seperate the men from the boys as much as any other corner. It takes a lot of skill and commitment, (although a differents sort of commitment to taking druids well for instance is needed)to get through the chicanes well, and looking at the new knickerbrook chicane it really adds to the lap.

Drivers who are confident in there car, and where they can put the car, take chicanes in there stride as well as looking at them as excellent overtaking oppourtunities rather than a hinderance.

[mcurtis26]

I have to agree that chicanes don't always take away from the excitement of a track. The Goodwood chicance always made for good racing. I'm sure anyone that was at Oulton when Paul died would agree that the Knickerbrook Chicane should be there.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by blue nose
I just think there should be an opption for us to try a different format ie the Bikes do not use the chicane.

Since the new chicane has been in use bikes do use it although the person after whom the chicane has now been named only raced on it at one meeting.

Brands Hatch Leisure then decided to name the chicane, not the corner, in his memory in August 2003 and it should now be referred to as Hizzy's chicane.

[kickstart]

Why is it that so many contributing to this thread seem to think that the only option to slow down a dangerous part of a circuit is a chicane. I agree with all who say that Knickerbrook was clearly a dangerous corner pre- chicane because the lack of run off was totally disproportinate to the speeds of cars at that point. If there was ample run off and/or a suitable gravel trap then there should not be a problem.
If we racers/officials/spectators etc do not put pressure on circuits to re-design where necessary then eventually we will have circuits dotted with chicanes. I point in particular to Mallory Park, which is one of my favourite circuits, but in my view the esses are dangerous because of the lack of run off space versus the speed involved. What do we think will happen when someone is killed or seriously injured there - you bet - a slow speed chicane, unless a re-design for the better occurs. The corner onto Snetterton's main straight is a clear case in point, was dangerous and has been re-designed and is still far more enjoyable to drive than a chicane.
I do hope that I have not offended anyone - just my passionately held views - there are no winners when a fatality or serious injury occurs

[Walshy]

I agree with JnrJnr. A chicane is as much of a challenge to get right as any fast corner. That's the whole point of a race circuit. Varying corners at varying speeds. If it was just about flat out speed, you could go and do Drag Racing. If the circuit has a chicane, then we use it. Make the most of what's in front of you. That's the challenge. Another point would be if every corner was flat out top speed, overtaking would be tricky.

It's not about how big your b@lls are Bluenose. Every racing driver out there can go as fast as each other. The challenge of racing is getting the car set-up for the variety of corners on a given circuit.

Anyway, what's this car I have heard you have bought?

[blue nose]

I would still like the option for us to race without the chicane Mr Barfoot an co all enjoyed it the way it was.

[Walshy]

I know what you mean, but that's the way it is and we have to make the best of it. It's a tough Championship now. Do you think you are up for it?????

[blue nose]

I cant wait to get in the new car and go for it!!!!

[JnrJnr]

incidentally, when is the first black dog day at Oulton again?

[Seaman]

Derek Bell went through Knickerbrook without the chicane in the Le Mans Bentley at the Gold Cup meeting 2003 at quite high speed and it was scary to watch, and I assume he was not close to full speed. We were also there in 1991 when Paul Warwick crashed. I can sympathise with the wish to bring the old corner back but it's a bad idea and it isnt going to happen.

[Walshy]

And that Speed6 wasn't going that fast..........
You could hear the engine was off cam all around the circuit.
He was tippy-toeing......

[mcurtis26]

I am not proposing that a chicane is the only way to make a dangerous corner safer, but it tends to be the option that many circuits take as it is generally the quickest to implement, which often occurs when there is a knee jerk reaction following a fatal accident. However, I still think that the chicane should stay. With Oulton's future currently being uncertain with the sell off by Octagon, they are not likely to invest the amount of money a re-working of the corner would need, and just removing the chicane is not an option, as a bad accident is likely to do little for the marketability of the circuit to potential buyers.

[swift]

Realistically, there's absolutely no way that the safety guys and the circuit inspectors at the MSA would even contemplate removing the chicane at Knickerbrook. Especially in light of the terrible tragedy that occured there. I agree with the thoughts of Walshy & Jnr Jnr, a chicane should be regarded as another challenge just as any corner, hairpin, kink , blind brow etc. Surely there should still be the "buzz" of getting the chicane right as any other corner? I suppose in a way we've been fortunate that over the decades Oulton's track hasn't been radically altered yes, I know it's had to keep pace with the increases in demands for safety, but I think it still retains the "character" and presents the challenge that it always has.
You've got to face facts at the end of the day: racing cars corner quicker now, than they did then. I can't be precise with a date but I think early 60's Stirling Moss just failed to set the 100 mph average lap around Oulton: compare that with the average speed of a FF1600 today with 2 chicanes: we aren't that much slower and he was in a F1 car! Circuits have had to change to continue functioning. You can't turn on the TV these days without being bombarded with adverts for accident management companies:"Have you ever been injured in an accident?". How soon will it be before these people have an impact on our sport?

[kickstart]

Swift, I suspect that the first legal actions you will see in motorsport (if there have not already been some)will be caused be dangerous driving that leads to the death or serious injury to another competitor. Before anyone jumps up and down please imagine for a moment that your son or daughter is racing and is deliberately knocked off the track by another competitor and suffers serious injury, what other option does the family have if the injured person has a family to support.
In my professional life I have seen several young men who have suffered horrendous and permanent injuries, mainly in rugby, due to the total disregard of the rules of fair play by others.

[swift]

you could well be right there kickstart. I do believe that there has been one case of a race school settling out of court with a client who crashed one of the school cars. This being at least 12 months after the incident. there may well have been more.

[O'Schumacher]

I dont like the new chicane. It's higher speed than the old one, and the corner begins earlier. This reduces the breaking distance and the length of the straight over hilltop, in theory, actually reducing the overtaking opportunity to overtake, but probably (all you racers out there feel free to comment) adding more enjoyment & flow to teh track.

[JnrJnr]

Originally posted by O'Schumacher
I dont like the new chicane. It's higher speed than the old one, and the corner begins earlier. This reduces the breaking distance and the length of the straight over hilltop, in theory, actually reducing the overtaking opportunity to overtake, but probably (all you racers out there feel free to comment) adding more enjoyment & flow to teh track.

In theory, possibly.

However, if you are going to be doing any passing into druids (which is rare in its self) it is done well before the braking area because the possibility of two cars going round druids side by side is not a nice thought.

If your not alongside by the top of clay hill, passing into druids is virtually impossible regardless of entry speed unless you are passing a much slower competitor.

I think the current chicane layout is an excellent substitute to what was a very dangerous corner.

[Bob Pearson]

Was KB really flat in pre-chicane days? It seems a bit unlikely to me. I think the present chicane is better than its predecessor, but, I'm with you Blue Nose, the less chicanes the better.

[graeme]

used to perfer (I nearly put "like"!) the old version of Knickerbrook chicane... It was a lot more challenging, at least in a technical way.

The runoff is no where near enough to use on the run from Foultons, but probably not a lot different from the amount at the Esses at Mallory, which some catergories take with a lift or even flat (K-sports). Not sure what that says...

I believe the bikes now do use the new Knickerbrook chicane on the full circuit - I remember Superbikes going through there last summer - they call it/its now called Hissey's?

[StephenRae]

Knicker Brook in a FF1600 was fourth gear, with, in my case a firm brake....maybe thats where I was going wrong.