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Old 15 Mar 2018, 09:38 (Ref:3808114)   #601
Backagain
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That's easy to do but the vested interests who it would damage will cry like a two year old who has had its toys taken away from it so it won't happen. Even the most optimistic fans are beginning to admit that the present status quo will not survive and the whole idea needs putting through a blender to see what falls out. The present franchise system and the way the cars are regulated and built is one of the reasons that is inevitably going to lead to its demise. Unfortunately in professional motor sport there are a group of people who see that making money trumps entertainment and they will hang on by their bloody finger nails to protect what they have.

The parity line of thinking is another reason to think that there will be no injection of interest from other manufacturers and when and if Holden reduce or remove their interest all of a sudden it will be back to a semi professional series if it survives. Less greed and self interest and more understanding of why the decline is happening would go a long way to finding an answer to a problem that was obvious from the very beginning and the reason that the series was originally started which was to create wealth for a few select people. Don't give me the line that it was to promote motor racing and make teams viable, that won't wash, the underlying reason was a wealth creation exercise.
So right the dreaded equity funds who have no interests other than making max profits with absolutely no interest in the source of the income or the future of said source.
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Old 15 Mar 2018, 09:46 (Ref:3808116)   #602
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So right the dreaded equity funds who have no interests other than making max profits with absolutely no interest in the source of the income or the future of said source.
You mean the ones that manage most people’s superannuation?
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 04:17 (Ref:3808783)   #603
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You mean the ones that manage most people’s superannuation?
More likely referring to Archer Capital et al.
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 04:27 (Ref:3808784)   #604
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More likely referring to Archer Capital et al.
Buts its superfunds who are the investors in Archer capital.

when Archer make a profit peoples super funds make a profit (like wise with losses)
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:14 (Ref:3810295)   #605
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Watching this touring car race https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WcE7qaXMVM , the modern "Supercars" seems like it couldn't be further removed. The variety of the touring car race is just incredible! Alfa Romeo GTV's, 240T's, Commodore's, Volvo's, Starion's, 635i's, 325i's, Skyline's... Amazing variety of cars which resemble "real" road passenger cars, with an equivalence formula of weight/engine size that seems to work very well (just as it does in Improved Production to this day)!

The fans seem to love the touring cars too -- check out the packed stands!

Funny what a series of incremental changes (5.0L as main/only class, wings, franchises/RECs, sequential boxes, COTF spaceframes, composite panels) can do... Supercars is (almost? completely?) beyond recognition as touring cars.

Perhaps a new series should be started as an actual Australian Touring Car Championship, so we could have actual Touring Car racing just as Series Production and Improved Production continue in their intended forms to this day?
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:22 (Ref:3810296)   #606
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Watching this touring car race https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WcE7qaXMVM , the modern "Supercars" seems like it couldn't be further removed. The variety of the touring car race is just incredible! Alfa Romeo GTV's, 240T's, Commodore's, Volvo's, Starion's, 635i's, 325i's, Skyline's... Amazing variety of cars which resemble "real" road passenger cars, with an equivalence formula of weight/engine size that seems to work very well (just as it does in Improved Production to this day)!

The fans seem to love the touring cars too -- check out the packed stands!

Funny what a series of incremental changes (5.0L as main/only class, wings, franchises/RECs, sequential boxes, COTF spaceframes, composite panels) can do... Supercars is (almost? completely?) beyond recognition as touring cars.

Perhaps a new series should be started as an actual Australian Touring Car Championship, so we could have actual Touring Car racing just as Series Production and Improved Production continue in their intended forms to this day?
Well you could just go to Bathurst this weekend and get your fix of this. or watch it on fox

Time as moved on, its 30 years later.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:29 (Ref:3810297)   #607
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Well you could just go to Bathurst this weekend and get your fix of this.
Series Production is not bad, but just not the same as fully prepared touring cars in race specification!

They they aren't allowed to internally modify the engines in Series Production if I understand correctly (or change the turbos or gearboxes to heavy-duty racing items) which I guess is quite a big restriction?

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 24 Mar 2018 at 03:46.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:36 (Ref:3810298)   #608
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Series Production is not bad, but just not the same as fully prepared touring cars in race specification!

They they aren't allowed to internally modify the engines in Series Production (or change the turbos or gearboxes to heavy-duty racing items) is quite a big restriction.
so what are you saying? you want to see more brands? Is that what you are really saying?
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:43 (Ref:3810300)   #609
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Series Production is not bad, but just not the same as fully prepared touring cars in race specification!

They they aren't allowed to internally modify the engines in Series Production (or change the turbos or gearboxes to heavy-duty racing items) is quite a big restriction.
You can pretty much guarantee reliability will go right out the window.

As it is now, besides crashes, the current regs show almost bullet-proof reliability.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:46 (Ref:3810301)   #610
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so what are you saying? you want to see more brands? Is that what you are really saying?
Yes, and cars that aren't all the same, and aren't so abstract (e.g., Holden Vectra sports sedan essentially).

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You can pretty much guarantee reliability will go right out the window.
That would make the racing more interesting, no? The current cars are too reliable wouldn't you say?
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:54 (Ref:3810305)   #611
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Cars parked in the garage, does nothing for the actual racing.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 03:56 (Ref:3810307)   #612
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Cars parked in the garage, does nothing for the actual racing.
I must disagree. It's intriguing for the drivers to have to exercise mechanical sympathy, and "will they make it"?
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 04:00 (Ref:3810310)   #613
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I must disagree. It's intriguing for the drivers to have to exercise mechanical sympathy, and "will they make it"?
how does that benefit me the spectator though. the guy paying to watch
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 05:39 (Ref:3810322)   #614
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The rose coloured glasses again. The parity/equivalency methods never worked, and the arms race meant unless you had the car of the year you couldn't win a damn thing.

People who moan about a Commodore Cup but wistfully remember a class that saw Peter Brock line up in a Sierra, because nothing else could win, until the GTR came along and killed the category.

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Old 24 Mar 2018, 05:45 (Ref:3810323)   #615
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The rose coloured glasses again. The parity/equivalency methods never worked, and the arms race meant unless you had the car of the year you couldn't win a damn thing.

People who moan about a Commodore Cup but wistfully remember a class that saw Peter Brock line up in a Sierra, because nothing else could win, until the GTR came along and killed the category.
Yep - and before that the Group C days of constant bickering on the front page of Auto Fiction, allowances here, allowances there, teams claiming they'd be nobbled etc etc.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 05:47 (Ref:3810324)   #616
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how does that benefit me the spectator though. the guy paying to watch
Six and half hours of butterfly's in the stomach - Bathurst '89.

The uncertainty of not knowing is sadly missing from nearly all forms of motorsport.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 06:13 (Ref:3810328)   #617
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The more things change the more they stay the same.

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Old 24 Mar 2018, 07:25 (Ref:3810342)   #618
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People who moan about a Commodore Cup but wistfully remember a class that saw Peter Brock line up in a Sierra,
That's true and the Sierra cup was a pity, but nothing was stopping Holden from sourcing their own turbo rocket from within the Chevrolet or Opel family.

After all the Sierra saw off the rival 2.0L turbo cars on merit by genuinely being a superior engineered road vehicle compared to other four-cylinder turbo road cars like the DR30 Skyline, Mitsubishi Starion, Volvo and so on. That was on merit as an excellent car.

Given the touring cars are saloons, and not purpose built open wheelers, why shouldn't the best road car be the best race car? What a car by the way, lovely! <- Even the commentator noted the Sierra cup was FAR more fun to watch than the dreary McLaren demonstrations found in Formula One at the time...

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It's a compromise. It's a road car made into a racing car.
Isn't that what touring car racing is all about after all? Sadly forgotten by Supercars who never refer to themselves as the ATCC anymore.....

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Old 24 Mar 2018, 11:30 (Ref:3810382)   #619
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That's true and the Sierra cup was a pity, but nothing was stopping Holden from sourcing their own turbo rocket from within the Chevrolet or Opel family.
The thing that stopped them was nobody could afford to out-spend Nissan who had just built the GTR, and the entire house of cards fell down.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 11:39 (Ref:3810387)   #620
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The thing that stopped them was nobody could afford to out-spend Nissan who had just built the GTR, and the entire house of cards fell down.
Just ban 4WD and make the turbo-supercharger capacity multiplier larger! I wonder why they didn't consider that?

(Presumably) Nissan would then drop back to the R32 GTS-T model, and it's not like the 2.0L RB20 turbo rear wheel drive fitted to that version wasn't already a proven winner in HR31 form.

It still had potential if the equivalence and weights were tweaked, though certainly manufacturer politics in lobbying for this and that would be seen as a negative.

Forcing Nissan and eventually BMW out altogether was a pretty poor decision I think. IMO, the Supercars series became noticeably stronger (back to Group A days field depth) once Super Touring had past it's peak and some great entrants (like BJR, GRM, Paul Morris Motorsport) came (back) to the V8 Supercars. IMO the depth of the 5.0L field was comparatively weak around '95-97, when so many good quality competitors were off in the other series (it seems like there were often only 10-14 truly professional cars entered for the 5.0L series at that time, the rest: privateers).

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Old 25 Mar 2018, 04:34 (Ref:3810562)   #621
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Just ban 4WD and make the turbo-supercharger capacity multiplier larger! I wonder why they didn't consider that?

(Presumably) Nissan would then drop back to the R32 GTS-T model, and it's not like the 2.0L RB20 turbo rear wheel drive fitted to that version wasn't already a proven winner in HR31 form.

It still had potential if the equivalence and weights were tweaked, though certainly manufacturer politics in lobbying for this and that would be seen as a negative.

Forcing Nissan and eventually BMW out altogether was a pretty poor decision I think. IMO, the Supercars series became noticeably stronger (back to Group A days field depth) once Super Touring had past it's peak and some great entrants (like BJR, GRM, Paul Morris Motorsport) came (back) to the V8 Supercars. IMO the depth of the 5.0L field was comparatively weak around '95-97, when so many good quality competitors were off in the other series (it seems like there were often only 10-14 truly professional cars entered for the 5.0L series at that time, the rest: privateers).
How much faster would the GT-R have been if Nissan had worked with Bridgestone and not Yokohama...
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Old 25 Mar 2018, 07:20 (Ref:3810584)   #622
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How much faster would the GT-R have been if Nissan had worked with Bridgestone and not Yokohama...
or Toyo?
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Old 25 Mar 2018, 07:28 (Ref:3810587)   #623
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yeah sorry, massively off topic now.

Group A is dead, it died quickly, move on and discuss it in the historics forum
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Old 25 Mar 2018, 14:30 (Ref:3810656)   #624
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You mean the ones that manage most people’s superannuation?
And rip people off with management fees etc. I wouldn't go near any hedge fund with my super if you gave me the money. Anyone with half a brain can match hedge funds returns.
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Old 25 Mar 2018, 14:34 (Ref:3810659)   #625
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Well you could just go to Bathurst this weekend and get your fix of this. or watch it on fox

Time as moved on, its 30 years later.
That is your stock answer to anyone who wants any change and enjoyed motor sport in the past. I wonder what you will say when you want a return to what we watch today when you are old and grey.
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