Muscle Car Masters

[gruncle]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

If the car has a Group C logbook and took part in a Group C Touring Car race in 1984, what's the problem? If it is still in that specification, there shouldn't be any dramas.

Hi dave, yes there should not be a drama about it , but there is.

So if the car had a Group C logbook issued in 1984 and raced in Group C races in 1984 where is the problem?

[gruncle]

hi whitenight,
the first problem is as follows,
Nick, in his wisdom, changed the colour of the car, and then decided to give CAM$ the logbook to alter the photos in it. Silly boy!!
The book promptly went missing.

( at this point I will be very careful in how I explain this due to looming court matters)

CAM$ then after the normal kerfuffle, issued a new logbook with a new number, logbooked not as a group c, but as a sports sedan. when nick queried the change, he was informed by the person in charge " there is is no more group c therefore you cannot have a group c logbook. this is the one that you must have. it is this one or none"

Nick took the logbook, and very soon appealed to a very senior person at the national level of motorsport who reversed the state office decision and very carefully drew a line thru the SS annotation in the logbook, overstamping it with the CAM$ stamp, and wrote next to it 3G. Nick then went happily on his way not realizing the full import of what was to happen some years down the track
nick then raced the car in all sorts of meetings over the next few years, so many in fact that the logbook is getting very close to full. nick was rarely a winner in the car, all sorts of misfortunes befell him, then the group C reformed as a "historic" class and nick happily joined in, running midfield if he finished at all.

so the logbook that I have in my briefcase, and showed the CAM$ stewards last sunday is a Group C logbook contrary to what people have been saying.

The stewards actually sent a message to me last sunday saying that would I bring the logbook back because the historic commission would like to look at it
but because nick had left the circuit with my briefcase in the back of his car I was unable to comply with their request.
I then mentioned that I have multiple scanned copies of the logbook available if they wanted one i was only to pleased to give them one (or if required as many as they liked.) this offer was politely declined.

From this, I can only surmise that ,in their usual highly efficient way CAM$ have lost something

I hope I have not bored you too much, but this is the sort of problems nick has to endure to get his certificate of description for the falcon
Basically CAM$ and the historic commission have no idea of the cars history and are content to put as many obstacles in the way in the hope that nick will go away. They may have just succeeded .

If you are interested, over the next day or so I will try and give you the story on the mechanical side of things. let me know if you want to hear it ,or I will go away and continue this fight for justice away from the full glare of the web back into the forests of committeedom

[bathurst77]

Gruncle
You haev a lot of very interested, supportive people here.
Please tell us more!

[MRJUCY]

Seeing I drive an XD I'd be very interested in the mechanical aspects of the car& am also interested in the other side of things as well

[BlueMax]

Go On Gruncle, I would like to hear the rest of the story.

[Group'C']

Thanks for the Answers Gruncle,

If a car only runs in Club level races they are not really classed as being Touring car races and there fore dont count as being run in Group 'C'

Have you found any entry lists or results from when the car ran in 84?? as it would be interesting to see what the races were called

There is an original Group 'N' car in Tassie with a similar Log Book story but that is a well known car and alot of people know the complete history !

I have just been envolved with CofD for another car down here and have found no problems SO FAR. The car is running at Sandown this weekend under the 6 week rule.
I assume there would be a few cars that have only just got there paper work done and no Log Book as yet, So scrutiny would be interesting!

I am very interested to see the out come of this one

[rdmdog]

Geez Group C, you must be reading a different rule book, the Group C regs only mention cars with a log book issued in the "Eligeble Vehicles" Paragraph, other than in the preamble where it states a "Competition History".

No mention of a requirement for it to tbe a Group C race let alone a Championshp one!!

[gruncle]

good morning rdmdog,
the exact wording that I am working off is:-

the car has to prove its competition history eg;
that it competed in a speed event for which it was eligible before 31 december 1984.

OK, so whats the problem you ask.

1. Signed statutary declarations from officials who were there and saw the car run. Accepted in every court in the land, BUT dismissed by CAM$.

2. Nick's workshops were destroyed along with his records in a major fire about 15 years ago, along with irreplaceable cars and race parts.

3. CAM$ have undertaken ( at my insistence ) a search of their records covering that period. So far I have had no further correspondence about the result of that search, apart from an admission that the records are incomplete

Why does that not surprise me????

I have photos of the car as it was first presented and a photo of the car crossing the finish line at calder during that race meeting. Probably last place!

Incidentally, can anyone help me in locating rob shute who ran a mitsubishi colt mirage in 1983/84 in 83 it was all white and in 84 was white with red flares

[gruncle]

morning all,
further development on the bunfight that occurred at eastern creek at the muscle car masters.
1. early this week a phone call was taken at nicks shop from a person at CAM$ who wished to talk to nick. As nick was busy the caller was asked to ring back. he never did call back.
2. late yesterday afternoon Nick received a call from a very senior person at CAM$ asking that would he, nick, not proceed with any further action because an enquiry into the eastern creek incident was being undertaken. Nick, as requested, has asked for proceedings that have been launched in another place , be halted for the time being.

I, not being a member of any CAM$ organization am under no such agreement and will continue to explain what is, and what has occurred. I will not name names, and will try as far as possible to remain as dispassionate as I can in outlining these activities

I take it, Mr Moderator, that this is acceptable to you on this forum??

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by gruncle

I, not being a member of any CAM$ organization am under no such agreement and will continue to explain what is, and what has occurred. I will not name names, and will try as far as possible to remain as dispassionate as I can in outlining these activities

I take it, Mr Moderator, that this is acceptable to you on this forum??

There are no sacred cows on this forum.... if something is worthy of discussion, and the chain of events and facts are clear, or made open for comment, there is no problem from here to continue to share the knowledge.

At the point where this becomes a legal argument, and the discussions may have an impact on this situation, either positively or negatively, it may need to be reassessed.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by gruncle

rdmdog,
nick karadimas and the team are in the throes of preparing to send the white falcon to the states where it will run in a series against the local cars of the same era. It is not set in concrete as yet as to the series happening, but it has taken 3 years to set it up to this stage.

.

Same route as the ex Negus A9X driven by Paul Stubber?
Same series?

[gruncle]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Same route as the ex Negus A9X driven by Paul Stubber?
Same series?

cavvy,
I am not 100% sure at this stage, but I think the two black sheep clans will be having a good trip together.
reckon our american friends are looking forward to it, just by the number and tone of their emails. I really hope it comes off.
We will have to put the sponsors logo on the bonnet (No! no! telli pleeez just yet) . and apart from painting the Australian Flag on the roof, it will run just as It did here.

[gruncle]

the story of the white falcon,

for the start I will run with the easy bit, the last 12 months.

Nick had entered the car for the tattersalls historic meeting nov 2004, but due to poor health at that time offered the drive to phil Kirkham.
phil hurriedly checked the car out and pronounced its' OK I will give it a go.

First time in the evil handling falcon and in the wet qualified the car at 1.27 a good 2.7 seconds off pole.
a few adjustments were made and in the first race finished 3rd. then overnight the car was checked for alignment to try and address its handling difficulties. and lo and behold the car was 29 mm out of square, camber was all over the place, and the caster didnt bear thinking about.

Phil tweaked the car up in the track garage, and out the car went to have another go. big fat tyres and water over the track at turn one didnt mix and the car skated off on the warmup lap, having to start at the rear of the grid, phil ended up in 8th place.

race three saw the car being tweaked a little more and away it went, winning the race by 33 seconds, averaging 3 seconds a lap faster than anyone.

then the fun started. how dare a car leave its rightful place at the back of the field and do this sort of thing Loud howls of protest, Illegal Car, Its fitted with a 5 speed gearbox, Its got a supercar suspension, were some of the remarks being bandied about. and I heard one competitor say that car scared me when it went past me!! Well I ask you, how does one answer to that remark??
I did answer him. I dont think he likes me no more!!!

I think the car had a permit for that event, but i will have to check further.
That was the first time I was involved with the car, so I was not up to speed at that stage

The falcon then went off to rowan harmons meeting at oran park where it was decided that the driver would be told to take it easy because at that stage the team had been informed that the only thing holding up the CofD was the cars mechanical Inspection. phil went out and promptly won the first two races at a reduced pace. just keeping enough speed to make sure nobody passed him. But in the true tradition of motorsport the thing broke.
welds holding the floating rear axle assembly to the axle tube failed and the whole shooting match sailed off into the blue leaving the car sitting on 3 wheels in the infield.

the team then applied for a permit for the HSRCA meeting at eastern creek. this was granted, and the team went off to race. during the paperwork process nobody even asked me if the car had a permit to compete.
again everything with the car was ok, and it did its usual, ran well and fast, with the driver again running to instructions, which were. run just fast enough to keep the group c cars behind but do not challenge the group a cars. these instructions were carried out with only one blemish.
check out event 26 the first standing lap time. docked his pay for that one !

arriving back at the shop on monday nick was greeted by phone calls from the historic committee telling him that Quote" the switchboard has lit up with complaints from competitors about your car" unQuote

THATS ALL FOR NOW
any questions let me know and I will try and answer them ( gunna sneak off to sandown for a squiz) I will hide in the radio shack so i can listen in to all the comms.

[GTRMagic]

Phil Kirkham is no dud as a steerer... why would the 'powers that be' be shocked that a driver with quite a lot of experience is able to go quicker than a group you could politely call 'gentleman racers'?

Did Mr Stubber get in hot water for putting a V8Supercar driver in his HDT Torana at the Muscle Car meeting? Its kinda the same thing... you put a good driver who can offer setup assistance, in a car not short of horsepower or handling... and whacko the diddlio, you may have a winner on your hands...

[Shiney]

Originally Posted by Group'C'

Gruncle
I dont know if I have missed something on here, but Is the problem with the Falcon that it was only a spare shell and had never had a log book issued, The car never raced as a Group 'C' ?

This thread has been the most interesting thing I have read for a while.(That includes a few sci fi publications!!!)
I have a an ex Les Small GMP&A shell that was also a spare. (V.L.) I was wondering if the Group A regs are the same as Group C, where as it must have competition history to race in the current categories?

[rdmdog]

Pretty similar Shiney, but it does list that overseas races are acceptable, you might have a good display car or Improved Production car in your shed?

[Group'C']

Shiney
What is the history of the car that you have so far?

[Group'C']

Does anyone know the Reason that Mr Stubber had his arm in a SLING at the Muscle Car Masters.
When I saw him he was actually using it to move some oil containers so could not have been to much wrong!

[rdmdog]

IIRC he had some sort of operation recently.

[Group'C']

So even if he had not got 3mths he would not have driven at the Masters

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by Group'C'

So even if he had not got 3mths he would not have driven at the Masters

Alright, call me thick, but what does "getting 3 months" refer to in this case, a suspension? And if so, what for?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by David Towe

Alright, call me thick, but what does "getting 3 months" refer to in this case, a suspension? And if so, what for?

Good luck getting an answer on this forum David, I've asked what happened at Bathurst only to get uninformed speculation, no facts, NIL, even an unsubstantiated claim of a rumour (unsourced) of launch control.

[Shiney]

Originally Posted by Group'C'

Shiney
What is the history of the car that you have so far?

I only bought it a month ago from a cockie in south western Victoria. He was using it as a work car and the boot was half full of hay.
The story he told to me went like this. It was built in '85 (V.K.) and bought by Les Small as a spare for Grice. It was reshelled to V.L. at the begining of '87 but still not used. When Grice and Small went their seperate ways, it was purchased by one of the younger mechanics in the workshop, fitted out for road duties and licenced. He subsequently moved to country Victoria somewhere working in another workshop when he was somehow killed. The car then sat in a back corner of this place for several years when the farmer that I bought it from happened to see it and asked if it was for sale.
However, I believe he was wrong in at least one point.
Although this car does not have a VIN number, the body number on the left strut tower starts with AVL, whereas the one on my VK grp A is BVK which leads me to believe it is more than likely an '87/'88 build date.
Some parts that have been bolted on have paint underneath that are not Holden colours.(The orange used on the Grice/Percy VL, and a Sky Blue sort of colour.) The underside of the back spoiler has been hit hard with a hole saw to reduce weight.
I wrote to Holden asking for confirmation on who it was sold to but they haven't kept records of any of the race cars. They recomended I talk to HDT but they had no idea either. I have resisted ringing Less Small until now only because I have been told that he can be a bit of a grumpy bugger who doesn't like talking about the past much, although I will ring when other avenues have been exhausted.
If anybody in this group have any clues please feel free to post them.
Model-----VK19 Racinr Shell
Body No.--92023410
Trim.........
Paint------No Paint
Built.........
Eng LV2 Trans M39 Axle.........

Strut tower; AVL044847 M

Vin Plate; VK19 Nasco Shell

[Beatcha]

From memory and this is pushing it. The car was a vk and then had a front change to VL, The Vin plate says it is a VK but i always thought VK19 was allocated to HDT and is why you probably got the respnse from Holden. I am not to sure if the car did any racing but think it might have been a "T" car at some stage. I will have to look through what i have here when i dig it out but i know both HDT and Small ran "T" cars in 85-86. The strut tower number means very lettle as this the whole front would have been changed in the VL update.