Muscle Car Masters

[rdmdog]

Would it have been panels only for the VL conversion?

[Shiney]

I would have thought so RDMDOG, though I believe there were minor changes to the front end geometry between VK & VL.
As for your tag, I sometimes believe it is neither. Just a business plan!!!

[Beatcha]

Yes you are right minor changes and most people didnt worry about the except HDT amd Small.

[Shiney]

Email has been sent Beatcha. I'll be back online tonight.

[gruncle]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Good luck getting an answer on this forum David, I've asked what happened at Bathurst only to get uninformed speculation, no facts, NIL, even an unsubstantiated claim of a rumour (unsourced) of launch control.

morning cavvy,

re paul stubber and bathurst,

Hopefully my friends over in wa might be able to dig up some info, from the horses mouth, so to speak. I will post it as soon as it comes available, but remember it may take time, cos now we are in daylight savings mode they are even futher backward than usual.

[gruncle]

morning all,
further to the last 12 months with the white falcon, just a quick look at the meetings it ran in and what paperwork was required. remember all thru this period the c of d was slowly grinding along.

Tattersalls historic Sandown november 2004,
permit to compete issued, Kirkham's first time in car.

# Phillip island historic feb 2005.
Permit to compete denied.

Touring car festival Oran park april 2005
No permit to compete required. Car Now holds south cicuit lap record.

# hsrca historic meeting Eastern creek june 2005
Permit to compete issued. Car now holds lap record.

# Queensland historic August 2005
Permit to compete denied.

Winton historic meeting october 2005.
no permit required. Car now holds long circuit lap record

Muscle car masters october 2005
no permit to compete required. team fined for not having c of D.

October 2005 car withdrawn from all future competition in australia.

# group C club championship event

Nick has just been informed that there is a trophy waiting to be picked up, rumor has it that it is for 3rd place in the club's national series!

[Shiney]

It must be like banging your head against a brick wall.

[gruncle]

Yeah!!
feels good when it stops. which it will one day soon.

[gruncle]

more on the white falcon.

There have been letters written to the group c association complaining about various aspects of the falcon.

so far i have been unable to see copies of these letters even in a bowdlerised form to enable the team to defend itself against these complaints.

Some complaints that I know about are:-

1. the car originally ran with 19" rears. true.

now the car runs on 18" rears. the reason for this is :- Our long time tyre supplier has used his network to try and source 19" tyres in the size we need but has been informed that that size is no longer manufactured any where in the world. therefore 18" is the closest we can get.

2. Car has a carbon fibre dash. false.

The boys put a piece of vinyl as a cover over the badly scratched black painted instrument panel originally fitted. (in front of the standard instrument cluster as per regulations.)
This vinyl had an imitation carbon fibre pattern printed on it.

3. car has a 5 speed gearbox fitted. false

the team has 5 speed richmond gearboxes in stock which can be used in sports sedans, but have never been fitted to the white falcon. apart from being unnessessary, they probably would not fit anyway.

4. Supercar suspension. False.

The car had up till recently a leaf spring rear end with single dampers and located with a panhard rod.
But due to the upgrade forced on the team in august this year, it is now fitted with a coil spring rear end and axle location is done with 4 trailing arms and a watts linkage as per the period Homologation documents and CAM$ 1984 group c specifications as described in the manual.

Just as an aside to this, nick has the homologation documents for falcons starting at XT and then every model thereon up to XE and every CAM$ manual from 1967 to the current edition.

One must ask the Question,
does CAM$???????

Nick has offered to , and has made his information available,to interested parties . Such as Muscle Car Magazine who used his information as a source for a large part of the article RPO 83 in the magazine earlier this year.

Thats it for now, fingers are getting sore from typing, and correcting typo's

[St00ge]

Historic Commision/CAM$ = .... I feel for you guys and hope it it all gets resolved and you and your team can get back to racing and stop worrying about all this other cr@p



Also gruncle would it be possible for me to obtain a copy of the homologation documents for the XY Falcon?? I would like to have a read of them

St00ge

[gruncle]

hi stOOge,

possibly able to do that, as long as CAM$ do not get a look in.

[mixxer]

Fantastic event, we had a great time.
Thanks to all those
that organised it,
that brought the cars out of the various workshops,
that drove the cars in very average conditions,
heros of the bygone ears that made the event something special.

[XW GT]

I have just picked up a copy of AMC magazine (#22), and without trying to promote the product, it has heaps of Group "C" stuff, and explains the criteria for eligibility etc that Gruncle has been trying to do .

[gruncle]

Originally Posted by gruncle

morning cavvy,

re paul stubber and bathurst,

Hopefully my friends over in wa might be able to dig up some info, from the horses mouth, so to speak. I will post it as soon as it comes available, but remember it may take time, cos now we are in daylight savings mode they are even futher backward than usual.

Information that I have recieved just a few minutes ago, regarding paul's car is as follows:-

Apparently the roll cage is tacked onto the A pillar around the area where the dashboard meets the firewall, contrary to the regulations.
I have been told that this was done when the car was first built some 4 years ago. funny how it is just picked up now!!!!

And at eastern creek some person (of the official capacity) was seen measuring inside the engine bay with a long steel rule.

further info to come !!

[gruncle]

more on the white falcon,

latest snippets,

phone call from historic commission member stating that eastern creek was an historic meeting. Mind you , he was not there at the meeting and never saw the permit pinned to the board.

Asked nick to take control of the team ( must be getting under their skin,
one thinks)

Nick explained that he is owner of the car/ team and has delegated all the day to day operations to the team manager. The driver of the car is a contracted professional driver, and his task is to drive and has no responsibility for the team operations.
Nick was then asked would he resume driving duties in the car and the answer was an emphatic NO.

It was then stated that any correspondence in the matter of the white falcon
would be handed to the team manager to attend to, and any further communication re the car would be in writing by all parties, with copies of all correspondance being forwarded to the teams legal representatives. In a nutshell, we understand you do not like dealing with the the team manager, but it is him or the legal representatives, your call.

The car would not run in any historic meeting in the future and if the USA trip does not eventuate, the car would, in all probability, be converted to components.

Boy oh Boy! is gruncle having fun sitting on the fence watching all this happen.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by gruncle

Information that I have recieved just a few minutes ago, regarding paul's car is as follows:-

Apparently the roll cage is tacked onto the A pillar around the area where the dashboard meets the firewall, contrary to the regulations.
I have been told that this was done when the car was first built some 4 years ago. funny how it is just picked up now!!!!

And at eastern creek some person (of the official capacity) was seen measuring inside the engine bay with a long steel rule.

further info to come !!

Back when the car was built the roll cage was allowed to be like that and welded into the engine bay (I have seen multiple other cars with the exact same setup built in the same period) But the rules changed and now only "bolt" in bars are allowed in the engine bay. Any car that was built before the change of rules is legal (As Pauls was) so basically they made up a bullsh!t rule break.

Originally Posted by St00ge

Back when the car was built the roll cage was allowed to be like that and welded into the engine bay (I have seen multiple other cars with the exact same setup built in the same period) But the rules changed and now only "bolt" in bars are allowed in the engine bay. Any car that was built before the change of rules is legal (As Pauls was) so basically they made up a bullsh!t rule break.

Do you have documentation and the precise time of this rule change, because I have never heard of it.

The rules (in the CAMS manual) were reworded occasionally to clarify the grey or loosely protrayed areas.

I think you will find that this bar fitment was a grey area in the manual with a verbal okay given by the then national eligibility officer, an individual renowned for never providing anything in writting.

[St00ge]

I think it was more to do with CAM$ changing the general roll over protection rules/regs rather than a "Historic" rule, ~2000 IIRC.

[johnny yuma]

whatever...WHO AND WHY are disbelieving and upset that a well driven well
prepared Camaro can do 2.29s at Bathurst?Colin Bond did 2.31 in a v6 capri that looks today like a street car ,back in 1980.Its unaustralian to dud Stubber,I'm with the official who put nothing in writing and nodded'go race'.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by gruncle

more on the white falcon,

latest snippets,

phone call from historic commission member stating that eastern creek was an historic meeting. Mind you , he was not there at the meeting and never saw the permit pinned to the board.

If it was an "Historic" meeting, why was I allowed to run with out of period signage on my 635? I saw the permit and it stated "National Other" meeting. Brian Goulding (race secretary), the Chief steward and the head scrutineer all checked this out in order to confirm whether I would be allowed to race or not. Their conclusion was it was not an "Historic" meeting and therefore signage and cars complying with the NCRs would be allowed to compete. I did, I had a ball and wish to also thank the organisers, AMC mag. and the crowd for making the day a day to remember.

If it was an "Historic" meeting the tiny minded individuals from the Group C assn. that believe our cars should only compete at "Historic" meetings and should carry only period signage, even if it meant the owner couldn't afford to go racing, would surely have had a go at stopping me from racing. My car carried a Touring Car Challenge sticker that in the thick of things I forgot was on there, a sticker from H&R Suspension Systems, one from ADG Welding supplies, a Colto Roller Shutters and an E.S.S. Garage Doors (my companies) on each side of the car. This surely would have brought out the dogs from my own Assn. but it didn't raise so much as murmur AFAIK, but they have been known to be spineless and work behind ones back.

I don't know the full story of Nick's car and am too engulfed in my own daily dramas to get involved, but I do wish a swift conclusion to the whole saga either way.

[gruncle]

morning all,

Interesting remarks from david towe, Good to see we are not the only case involved in Group C/A jiggery pokey.

Todays update on the white falcon

Verbal, From member of historic commission. your Cof D complete., we now need proof of competition history.
Photographs not acceptable.
Stat declarations not acceptable

Commission needs Results sheet or program of meetings entered in.

What utter garbage!!!!!!!!

I ask you, how many club level events have any of you attended, in that programs have been printed, let alone a list of competitors been issued?

My understanding is that for every event that is held under CAM$ durisdiction,
a report from the meeting stewards and a copy of the results are forwarded to the state office.

Hello CAMS$ where are they???????
Oh no! you have not lost them have you????


Funny that 12 odd months ago nick was told that all the paperwork was completed. all he had to prove was the cars authenticity.

[Amonfan]

Dont know what its like in other states, but i always got race programmes from Club race meets i attented to in VIC i have some dating back to about 84 but i know Nick isnt any of the ones i have. Im sure some one around these forums may have attented the meets Nick race at and may have a programme.....

[gruncle]

Morning Amonfan,

As I understand it , After grilling nick over the events he ran the car in, It was in all probability, a LCCA Club event, possibly along the lines of the group 5 series that occurred in later years.

One of the photos shows the white falcon, exactly as it is now, sitting on the old dummy grid at winton. parked next to it is the white mirage of rob shute

Another photo shows the car on the main straight at calder quite possibly either leading the field, which i doubt, or gridding up for a 2 car sprint as another car appears in the distance

I also have the original photos from nicks first logbook for the falcon complete with the CAM$ stamps. the actual event which started this long drawn out saga.

Certainly , if anyone on his forum could assist in any way it would be very much appreciated, and I am sure I could talk nick into offering a few laps in the passengers seat as a thank you

[cornermsport]

This is great reading Gruncle, I understand your delema's

Question on your last post. It seems you think it may have been driven in club events in '84, and it seems more along the lines of a lap dash/supersprint. If so, this could be the grey area as i think the preference in historics is vehicles that competed in an actual circuit race as opposed to club sprinting.


St00ge ;- I built my car around '97 and the car is tabbed to the "A" pillar, but i remember that you couldn't have welded bars thru into the engine bay / boot areas. I had my own way of interpreting that rule which i believed was legal, but eventually removed the foward bars to eliminate the drama's everyone else would have with it. The rule stated that the cage must meet the standard CAMS cage guidelines, couldn't protrude outside the cabin, and can't strengthen the bodyshell. I used to say the tabs are used so that the body is strengthening the cage!!!!

[DAVID PATERSON]

Gruncle, Corner is right, if the car competed on sprints or lap dashes, this won't suffice for CAMS Historic Eligibility. It must have competed in a race.

Every race meeting I've ever been to issued a programme. I have a time sheet, with a list of competitors and results for every race I have ever taken part in, whether it be Club, State or National level. So, if the car was RACED in 1984 the information is out there. Good luck in finding it.

I know that a Steward's report is completed for every event which is held under a CAMS permit and the report is sent to the State office of CAMS, but I don't know if the results are included with that report and I don't know how long the reports are kept for.