Challenge Series 2006

[Bob Pearson]

That just about rounds the whole thing off. There have been a number of people, all with assumed names, who have made an industry of attacking the Challenge initiative on this and other threads, in a manner which has bordered on the downright rude. Now gixxer has attacked them, in a manner which I feel is less harsh than they have adopted and No 4 leaps to occupy the morale highground and chastises gixxer. Hypocrisy or what?
For the record, I too doubt that this will all work, but step back and give PW some breathing space, if people want to gamble £5k on it then why not? Many people happily pay that sort of figure on a weekends racing and don't get past the first day without adding another £5k to thei bill. The key issue is that if PW did make it work he would have reversed the tide and started something all us racers would love, money flowing back for the first time we have ever known.

[boycie]

So £5,000 is an initial down payment is it?

I heard a season's full cost would be £180,000, no different to a top-line budget in an established series like Formula Renault? Is this true? It needs to be clarified.

And in any case, as No 4 has said, democracy is what forums are all about. You can't call him a hypocrite Bob!

Peter still hasn't answered how many genuine sponsors have come onboard with his current crop of drivers - can this be clarified too please? And before I get told to send for an info pack again, I'd rather some of my valid questions be answered first.

[Peter Wardle]

Hi boycie,
The operating budget looks to be about £180K depending on how its done. Compare this with other categories but use genuine budgets not wishful thinking. This will vary from team to team and includes car financing (if applicable) eventuality reserve, insurance, staffing, overheads, car operation, tyres etc. etc. It also includes the £5K registration fee (there are no race entry fees) which is cheaper than most and a lot cheaper than some.
A fully sponsored City branded car will bring in about £170K and we estimate that between £20-£25K is likely to come in for an average finishing position, rising in subsequent years. We are the only organisation I know about with a marketing department geared up to finding sponsorship for drivers and a means of doing it.
This means that drivers with no conventional budget can race with us and build a career which would be impossible in any other category and our unique racing system means we can accept any number of entries, privately budgeted or not. Some investment obviously helps as it speeds things up.
If we land a Series Sponsor then 80% of that goes into the driver's fund, plus various bonus money too. We are also negotiating other possible driver income and the prize and start money is 50% of the gross available gate income (excluding VAT unless the driver is VAT registered which actually he should be).
There are also a lot of other ways that drivers can develop income directly or indirectly depending on how they operate.
Depending on their situation some drivers, by signing with us, may be able to recover some of the VAT they've paid out for the past few months, plus anything up to 18 months or so of past expenditure may become tax allowable and recoverable in due course though I cant go into specific details here as it depends on each driver's circumstances.
Because of the controls we have over the spec of the car there are NO special engines or cars as there can be in other categories and our budgets are much lower than, for instance, F3 because our race systems avoid the need to endlessly test on new tyres to find another tenth of a second in conventional qualifying. We dont even have timed qualifying and so all success is based on race strategy which you cant test for.
On average a successful driver will complete about 400Km per event including morning set up sessions, SuperSprint heats and the Finals. Compare this with a short timed session and a 20 lap procession (oops - sorry - "race") in the traditional categories with up to four days of expensively standing around waiting for something to happen.
I cannot comment on any individual sponsorship negotiations as this is confidential for each driver.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Peter

[ukracing]

So your saying to me that you know that you have proof of special engines and cars in other series? "there are NO special engines or cars as there can be in other categories "

So is this slander again?

[El_Gibleto]

I'm wondering where they are going to find the many thousands of spectators they need to help finance the 'prize fund' to circuits with very few spectator facilities when even major international series struggle to attract large crowds.

What will the Challenge organisors provide for spectators and 'corporate guests'?

What will the series be doing to obtain coverage in the specialist, national and local media?

Why should a sponsor choice the challenge, an unproven product from an organisation with a history of failed launches over other racing or indeed non-racing options. eg there was a crowd of over 4,000 at Newport on Saturday for a rugby game that was effectively a dead group game. Surely that is a more effective outlet for an advertiasing budget than an unproven product.

Just asking questions that any sponsor and/or responsible drivers advisor would be asking.

[boycie]

great points El_Gibleto, I'm very concerned by this 'gate money' talk.

remember the Renault World Series event at Donington this year? I wasn't able to be there but I understand there were supposed to be 50,000 spectators over two days - and that could well be inflated like most of these things are.

The point I'm making is, if a free-to-enter event at one of the most accessible and popular circuits in the country can only net 50,000 what hope in hell does the Challenge have of attracting a gate large enough to pay drivers a decent amount?

The way things appear to be going, it seems the seven or eight guys signed-up to the series could well be going home with small change, if that, in their pockets.

How much will entry prices be? What about TV coverage too - will there be any Peter?

[No 4]

Re: Now gixxer has attacked them, in a manner which I feel is less harsh than they have adopted and No 4 leaps to occupy the morale highground and chastises gixxer. Hypocrisy or what?

Bob,

See the definition of hypocrisy below>

The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess.

So, with this in mind, why does my pointing out that a discussion forum is about debating issues and that a healthy debate can cope with people holding different viewpoints, constititute hypocrisy. You've lost me.

Further, if you care to read all my comments throughout this thread, you will note that generally they are supportive of giving Peter a chance, but not to the point where I'm prepared to blindly accept everything he says, e.g. if he bases a lot of his approach on the Challenge having a first-rate marketing capability and then takes 5 months to get a website up and running, the two are not consistent and it's perfectly reasonable to point this out.

[ukracing]

Lets just re-asses the vote again! I dont think anyone thinks this is going to happen do they? Only 2 people have thats Peter as he stated it and Gixxer I would imagen, but he has to have somthing to do with as he is the only person that I know on this forum and in the motorsport industry that wants this to work. Oh well at least Peter has one fan.

[REALIST]

[QUOTE=ukracing]Lets just re-asses the vote again! I dont think anyone thinks this is going to happen do they? Only 2 people have thats Peter as he stated it and Gixxer I would imagen, but he has to have somthing to do with as he is the only person that I know on this forum and in the motorsport industry that wants this to work. Oh well at least Peter has one fan.[/QUOTE

Are you sure you mean that? I think a lot WANT it to work, but very, very few believe it will.

[Bob Pearson]

I think you are right, just about any racer would want it to work in the hope that it is the opening of the flood gates that allows the money to start coming back to us.

[El_Gibleto]

The figures don't add up. Why would 20,000 plus people attend a race meeting, to see unknown drivers, at circuits like Pembrey which have very few facilities for spectators, and absolutely no facilities for high value corporate guests? Indeed very few of the british circuits have the infrastructure in place to cope with that many spectators.

Have the organisers of this series made the neccessary arrangements with the local authorities and police concerning the impact that number of spectators will have on the local road networks?

Was it difficult to persuade the circuit owners to agree to a 'revenue sharing' arrangement for spectator admissions? Something they have never agreed to before, indeed they have firmly rejected when it has been suggested before.

How many of the cars have been completed? surely for a series starting in March, only 12 weeks away, there should be a significant number of cars ready to run.

Who will be running the cars? do they have any experience of running high performance single seaters safely? Has the car passed an FIA crash test?

Just a number of questions that anyone considering involvement in such a series would and should be asking.

[Bob Pearson]

I wouldn't imagine anyone in their wildest dreams would expect to hit the figures in the first year, and if I remember rightly, the package does show the figures in phases over a number of years.
I would expect most of these questions were raised at the launch, i wasn't there, but one of my sons was, I must ask him.
I believe the intention is that the cars are owned and run by the driver/team, not as in FPA.
The interesting question Giblet is the one you raised about convincing cicuit owners to share gate revenue, these people aren't given to charity,and if they did agree would want something larger in return, so I wonder how that would work out.
The prospect of raising spectator numbers? with current figures it seems bleak, but evidence shows that spectators go where the show is ( just look at BSB and WSB)
So I guess it could be argued that they will go if it got good enough, but it would be a gradual thing that would need some propping up while it grew.

[Flavio Galtieri]

I clicked "I don't know but I hope so" simply because it's impossible for anyone outside the organisation to know for sure whether it will or it won't go ahead as planned.

On the question of media coverage, a lot of people seem to think a picture in Autosport somehow means it is automatically good for the sponsor. If the sponsor is Demon Tweeks it clearly is but if the sponsor is the local delicatessen it is of dubious value, however nice it is for the ego. The same goes for satellite TV coverage of national racing, most of which is paid for directly or indirectly by the teams anyway.

The key is "what are my sponsor's needs and how can sponsoring my race car help to meet them?"

If Mr. Wardle has a plan to address this question then there is every likelyhood that he will be successful.

The vast majority of sponsorship I see on the side of racing cars is disguised patronage. The driver's Dad's company, the driver's company, or the driver's dad's best mate's company.....what the hell the space is there and paid for so use it!

That's my tuppenceworth.

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by ukracing

Lets just re-asses the vote again! I dont think anyone thinks this is going to happen do they? Only 2 people have thats Peter as he stated it and Gixxer I would imagen, but he has to have somthing to do with as he is the only person that I know on this forum and in the motorsport industry that wants this to work. Oh well at least Peter has one fan.

Firstly i have nothing to do with the challenge!!!

Why can't i give support to something that i feel is the only championship that could well give a lot back to the driver,ok so its not up and running yet and Peter has had problems but doesn't any new venture come up against a few stumbling blocks.
I don't see anybody else coming up with any bright idea's perhaps i'm a realist and belive these things take time ,as the saying goes prevention is better than a cure!iron out the problems before you kick off then hopefully things will work out.
I may end up with egg on my face and so be it...........so peter wardell when you start with the first round i hope you kick ass and wipe the smug smiles of a few people!!!!!

[Bob Pearson]

Flav, from my recollection of reading the package ( it must have been a while ago as I was sat on the lawn in the sunshine) PW does have a plan for raising sponsorhip monies. I don't think it is original, as I have tried it myself in a small way, but never made it work. Surely I can't be the only one commenting on this who has read the package, I am not seeing any comments on what I know to be in it.
One of you must hold an Int C licence, so why not get one.

[Peter Wardle]

Hi all, its good to see the speculation gathering momentum.
A few answers for you, though some of our systems are strictly confidential at the moment because they break new ground and it would be a bit stupid of us to allow others to mess up the market place.
Theres been a lot of speculation about spectator figures and season start dates. A full season (ie: 2007 and beyond) will start in March with 20 events. 2006 will essentially start a bit later because of the start up lead times on a lot of the equipment which won't affect us in subsequent years and we'll announce actual dates as soon as possible.
For year one we have costed on average gate figures of 5,000 paying spectators. That means some will be more and some less, and all these figures have been arrived at over a period of time. No one in their right minds would work on 20,000 as it would be totally unrealistic as a business model even with our promotional programme.
El Gibleto: do you really think we would embark on racing our cars on the Oval at Rockingham at up to 200mph without the chassis survival cell being properly crash tested? In fact we are using one of the safest chassis ever built, based around the Reynard Champ Car tub that was also used for the Grand Prix Masters car and I havent noticed any of their drivers giving anything but high praise for the standards of construction for those, made by the same supplier that we are using. Try asking Mark Blundell what he thought of the chassis after his Rio shunt.
ukracing: haven't you noticed how well the Mercedes engine has been going in European F3 compared to everything else? Next year a limited number are in the UK so if you were an aspiring driver would you fork out around £400,000 knowing that those engines were already committed to other drivers and it may be apparently very difficult to beat them? It is something of a dilemma you must admit.
Finally, I'm a fan of Walt Disney who had a very simple system he used for deciding if a new project would work or not? He would try it out on conventional thinking people
to get their reaction on the principle that most people were going in the wrong direction anyway. If most told him he was mad to even try it and wouldn't support it then he knew he was on the right track so went ahead. He seems to have been quite successful in some of his projects!
Einstein said "you cannot solve problems by using the same thinking that created them in the first place".
Just a thought.....
Peter

[No 4]

I attended the launch/have a copy of the proposal and will reread and try and come up with a few, balanced, comments.

[Peter Wardle]

No 4 - if you have any questions then please call me as a number of things have advanced since the launch.
Best regards,
Peter

[boycie]

Peter, you didn't address my earlier question regarding gate prices - how much will they be for the 5,000 paying punters you're banking on?

And what provision will there be for sponsors? Will they receive VIP passes as in other championships one could mention, and what about hospitality too?

Just a thought as well, isn't the fact Mercedes is producing the best engine in F3 at the moment purely a result of a good old honest thing called competition? It may lead to an imbalance in fairness but surely it's up to Mugen-Honda, Opel etc to close the gap?

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Peter Wardle

A full season (ie: 2007 and beyond) will start in March with 20 events. 2006 will essentially start a bit later because of the start up lead times on a lot of the equipment which won't affect us in subsequent years and we'll announce actual dates as soon as possible.

Hmm.

Hasn't it been the case up until now that the thing would kick off proper in 2006?


Is this a "delayed till 2007, but a few pilot races in 2006" type announcement?


Those are usually followed by total silence and nothing happening on track.


I hope I'm wrong.

[El_Gibleto]

I'm sure a full 2006 season, starting in early march was announced a few months ago.

This seems very similar to what happened on the two previous launches for the series. If I was sponsoring a driver that had comitted to racing in this series I'd be very unhappy about the organisers failing to meet their comitment to provide a full season having advertised that was going to be the case.

I note Peter hasn't answered the point about who will be running the cars, and what experience have they got of running high performance single seaters, or how many cars actually exist. Could it be that the 'prototype' is the only car built?

I'm sure we are all eagerly awaiting the 'revised' list of races for this season!

[Peter Wardle]

Hi boycie, you're absolutely right, it is up to the other F3 engine builders to match the Merc performance if they can. My question was, if you were committing £400,000 to a season with an engine that was unlikely to be able to compete with a strictly limited number of Merc engines which you couldnt get hold of at any price, would it be sensible to do so? It seems a fair question. If the Merc engines were available to anyone who wanted them then it isnt an issue, but it seems they aren't.
re ticket policies: our ticket prices for adults (ie: 16 and over) are £20 at most events, £15 at Rockingham and all accompanied children (15 and under) get in free.
Of course we will have various hospitality arrangements but no matter who they are, everyone except the Marshalls and Officials buys a ticket - even me! Teams too will need tickets as the only passes will be for vehicles. This hugely simplifies the
task for the gate staff and eliminates the problems of the huge numbers of free passes which swell crowds by anything up to 50% at some ticketed meetings. This compares very well with most other entertainment media and ensures that the drivers can receive 50% of the ticket income, not 50% of what's left after costs have been deducted. There is no ration on the adult to child ratio so one adult with a coach load of children is welcome too.
We are currently completing our Calendar, bearing in mind that even the BTCC calendar just announced still may change if the Grand Prix gets moved again.
All provisional calendars for National racing are just that until the International dates are fixed which is due to take place in a few days at the next World Council meeting in Paris.
I appreciate that this might be difficult to understand if you arent centrally involved.
Best regards,
Peter

[boycie]

Originally Posted by Peter Wardle

re ticket policies: our ticket prices for adults (ie: 16 and over) are £20 at most events, £15 at Rockingham and all accompanied children (15 and under) get in free.
Of course we will have various hospitality arrangements but no matter who they are, everyone except the Marshalls and Officials buys a ticket - even me! Teams too will need tickets as the only passes will be for vehicles.
Peter

Are you being serious with the above Peter?

So, you're effectively saying all sponsors and teams will have to pay to enter the circuits, just like Joe Public, and you think that idea is going to float!?!

If I were a sponsor forking out even just a few thousand, there's no way I'd want to become associated with a driver in a series if I had to then pay to turn up at the venue. Free entry is one of the biggest benefits to sponsors in my experience.

And teams? So it's like asking the backroom staff from a conference league football club to pay to enter a ground? Sorry to sound dismissive but this idea sounds completely crazy and to dress it up as 'simplifying' things for gate staff is a bit poor isn't it?

And Peter, you're 'even' going to pay for a ticket yourself? Surely you'll be using the proceeds you make from participants anyway?

Considering you can get into a BSB meeting or even a BTCC event for not much more than your headline ticket price, do you really believe the average person on the street will want to pay £20 each to watch an unproven series?

[boycie]

Any possibility of an answer Peter???

[ukracing]

urm thats gotta be the craziest deal iv ever heard of paying for! I as a driver aint paying to enter, neither is my family let alone my team. that just ups the budget about £3,000 just for entry for the people that I need to run the car. Iv hear of silly ideas in the past but Peter you have just laid ur own tombstone on that idea.