Category engine

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

I think Australian fans WANT V8s based on the past 40 years or our racing DNA

What are you talking about!?









Many of the fan favourites were the ones that were NOT V8s!

Fans would have been cheering on their preferred inline Nissan four or six, screaming rotary Mazda, wailing V6 Ford Mondeo, rorty BMW 3 Series 4 cylinder, throaty Toyota 4AGE, beautiful Alfa Romeo Twinspark 4 cylinder, howling Volvo 5 cylinder and so on but these competitors were essentially told to go away and that were unwelcome in the ATCC...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You ask any supercars fan why 5lt V8s became the prominent engine in the atcc, they wouldn't have a clue. Not just that, probably even figures within the supercars industry wouldn't know.

I doubt that's correct. I'm sure most fans are aware that engines types other than a
5L V8 were either banned or rendered uncompetitive.

Even so the BMW 5 Series was a large sedan that came with a V8 and was STILL told that it was not welcome to compete (which is ridiculous).


What could have been.

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

I think Australian fans WANT V8s based on the past 40 years or our racing DNA

Far from a fan preference, these are wounds the ATCC is still struggling to repair IMO, and efforts to "accommodate" new manufacturers under COTF have seemingly just made it worse...

I think you've got "Australians racing fans want V8s" mixed up with "Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon fans want V8s"!

The disappointment of Holden fans that Holden won't exist to race in the ATCC in 2022 onwards, is surely not a patch on the (George) fury that Nissan fans would have felt when the 1993 Touring Car regulations were announced apparently to specifically exclude Nissan!

For example, why didn't they just ban AWD? Banning AWD, and then using a suitable equivalence between turbocharged vehicles up to 2500cc for RWD Skyline & Sierra and NA up to 5000cc for RWD Commodores & Falcons would have been a far more sensible regulation.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

What are you talking about!?









Many of the fan favourites were the ones that were NOT V8s!

Fans would have been cheering on their preferred inline Nissan four or six, screaming rotary Mazda, wailing V6 Ford Mondeo, rorty BMW 3 Series 4 cylinder, throaty Toyota 4AGE, beautiful Alfa Romeo Twinspark 4 cylinder, howling Volvo 5 cylinder and so on but these competitors were essentially told to go away and that were unwelcome in the ATCC...

WHO said that was fun ? It was part of the history but no one said it was fun.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

s quo, and doesn't change because CAMS/MA don't know any better.

Australian fans like F1 more than supercars. It's the leftovers that get attached to supercars.

You ask any supercars fan why 5lt V8s became the prominent engine in the atcc, they wouldn't have a clue. Not just that, probably even figures within the supercars industry wouldn't know.

Maybe its because its what we know and what we like, leftovers !

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I think you've got "Australians racing fans want V8s" mixed up with "Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon fans want V8s"!

Isnt that was the Supercars series based on? or was it based on every cylinder available aka Touring Cars?

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Isnt that was the Supercars series based on? or was it based on every cylinder available aka Touring Cars?

Supercars claims all the touring car history as their own....even Bathurst history as their own.....

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Isnt that was the Supercars series based on? or was it based on every cylinder available aka Touring Cars?

It's supposed to the Australian Touring Car Championship... Skyline! BMW! Alfa Romeo! Ford Cosworth Turbo! Jaguar! All that good stuff!



Surely it's a perversion that some powers-that-be decided to turn it into the Australian Falcon & Commodore championship.

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Maybe its because its what we know and what we like, leftovers !

I don't know it or like it all that much...

Wouldn't you prefer BMWs, Ford turbos, Volvo turbos, Mitsubishi turbos, Toyota turbos and Nissans turbos going at it?

How can not providing a turbocharged capacity equivalence and thereby rendering a fleet of Sierras, Skylines, Supras & Starions touring cars ineligible be considered acceptable!?

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

WHO said that was fun ? It was part of the history but no one said it was fun.

The variety of manufacturers was far more fun than samey pushrod crossplane V8s, with road-going "homologation specials" (HDT VK SS) that were generally fairly softly sprung and didn't handle anything like the pukka tourer...

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

WHO said that was fun ? It was part of the history but no one said it was fun.

All those cars represent fun to me.

[Armco Bender]

Tesla wins Bathurst...

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

I hope all the people that yearn for 4 cylinders etc attend in their droves for TCR.

Personally once supercars stop racing V8's ill probably switch off and stop attending. It seems that supercars feel many others will do the same and therefore they want to retain that V8 DNA in Gen 3.

[S griffin]

If they want to change to 4 cylinders we would lose the DNA of the series. As you say there's always TCR to wet some people's appetite

But the series I'm sure will go on. Supercars has enough going for it and as long as we have enough of the grid and enough top quality drivers it will continue

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

I hope all the people that yearn for 4 cylinders etc attend in their droves for TCR.

Personally once supercars stop racing V8's ill probably switch off and stop attending. It seems that supercars feel many others will do the same and therefore they want to retain that V8 DNA in Gen 3.

THIS !!!!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If they want to change to 4 cylinders we would lose the DNA of the series.

That's just plainly incorrect. Just count the cars up the front of the grid -- eight 4-cylinders, three inline-sixes and only two V8s:







The four-cylinders sure look like entertaining fire-breathing beasts to me!

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

It seems that supercars feel many others will do the same and therefore they want to retain that V8 DNA in Gen 3.

What V8 DNA? As you can see the front of the grid is all turbo fours.

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Personally once supercars stop racing V8's ill probably switch off and stop attending.

Close-minded much? It's nice to have V8s (I prefer the sound of the flatplane Ferrari type), but it's nice to have V10s, V12s, inline-sixes, flat-sixes, V6s, inline-fours, flat-fours, rotaries and everything else too!

My favourite car is certainly not a V8, it's the good old NSX Type R with the 3.2 V6. Total driver confidence!

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That's just plainly incorrect. Just count the cars up the front of the grid -- eight 4-cylinders, three inline-sixes and only two V8s:

Those pics you shared are great but they are also from 30 odd years ago & prior to the current series and its rules - same as Group C rules are prior tro Group A, Improved Production prior to Group C and so on....

Getting rid of V8s would certainly change the DNA of the current series - may well happen but let's not pretend that if it does happen, it will be anything other than a MAJOR change to what the series looks and sounds like - changing the core DNA in the process.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The four-cylinders sure look like entertaining fire-breathing beasts to me!

Fire breathing? Yep, at times. Beasts? Maybe somewhat by the standards of their day but much more "beast" about a V8 and the way it goes about its business.

To use the heavily-quoted advertisement from back in the Holden Dealer Team days: "There is nothing quite like a V8" - it's a feeling and philosophy that still rings true for many.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Those pics you shared are great but they are also from 30 odd years ago & prior to the current series and its rules...

Getting rid of V8s would certainly change the DNA of the current series

The current rules that specifically excluded anything that wasn't a V8 (even a 5L V10 or 5L V12 were also excluded), so no wonder there are nothing but V8s!

Talk about a circular argument, "the DNA is V8s because the rules banned everything but V8s". (What!?)

Even at the time, the V8 rules were regressive rules were they not? Even at the time, turbos were the future, and turbos certainly are the present (albeit EV now the future)... Why pushrod-V8-only rules that harked back to the 1970's were implemented (while also excluding most manufacturer teams like Nissan, BMW, Toyota, Mitsubishi and later Audi & Volvo) is really a mystery...

The rules were so uninviting to manufacturers, that you had to go elsewhere to see your gripping Nissan vs Volvo battles that not long before were the drawcard of the ATCC: https://youtu.be/ErXThnVVtT8?t=3081 (great stuff!)

"There is nothing quite like a V8" - it's a feeling and philosophy that still rings true for many.

Thankfully Brock himself was not that close-minded and raced a wide variety of vehicles! Even, gasp, a Holden with an inline-six instead of a V8.

Besides the Group A Commodores went to 8500rpm and had a lovely high-pitched fury: https://youtu.be/-bbZplBfzBw?t=35 (great stuff! ), instead of the lazy 7500rpm of the 3A rules (or even lower revs of a road going V8 Falcon or Commodore ).

Many aspire to own a car like a E60 BMW M5 or C6 Audi S6 which have 10 cylinders arranged in a Vee, instead of a mere 8, or even a W211 Mercedes S600 with not 8 but 12 cylinders arranged in a Vee after all. The more, the merrier!

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Tourer

prior to the current series and its rules.

If the photo was “prior to the current series”, why does the current series claim all that history as it’s own?

You can’t have it both ways

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by one five five

If the photo was “prior to the current series”, why does the current series claim all that history as it’s own?

You can’t have it both ways

Of course you can. by the logic of what you've posted here, the ATCC finished and its history could not be claimed as soon as the technical rules changed from the first iteration. We've had production, improved production, Group C, Group A, now the current cars as examples, all of which can claim the history of the ATCC as they compete for that title.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

I think this could be argued about till the cows come home.

A large percentage want V8 engines

Another percentage want 4/6 cylinder turbo cars

Another percentage want TCR

Another percentage want GT3 engines

And a very tiny percentage want EV

At the end of the day Supercars class are unique to Australia and therefore the audience would have different tastes and attitudes compared to the Europe.

Hell look at the controversy the new Nextgen nascar is causing, aligning it rules closer to supercars with 18in centrehub wheels, sequential gearbox, IRS, spec chassis and refueling systems like supercar. Many Nascar supporters feel this is leaving the DNA of what made nascar so popular.

[Casper]

NASCAR are in the same pickle bottle as SC, no new platforms coming through to base the race cars on.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Of course you can. by the logic of what you've posted here, the ATCC finished and its history could not be claimed as soon as the technical rules changed from the first iteration. We've had production, improved production, Group C, Group A, now the current cars as examples, all of which can claim the history of the ATCC as they compete for that title.

Yet the series hasn’t been called the ATCC for 21 years, and for over the first decade of AVESCO/V8Supercars that whole era was derided by the organisation.

If you want to combine the two then how can you also claim going away from V8’s changes the series DNA, when non-V8s have been welcome to play for far longer than it was decreed V8s only?

[S griffin]

It's a similar but different series to the ATCC. Some things have been carried over, as well as new innovation coming in and it's still going strong enough. The thing is V8s still work, but even if it did change, it's not the end of the world. We have to see how the rules work over the next few years, but we've had a good run out and I hope we have a great new era of Australian Supercars on the horizon

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by one five five

Yet the series hasn’t been called the ATCC for 21 years, and for over the first decade of AVESCO/V8Supercars that whole era was derided by the organisation.

Yet the ATCC trophy is awarded to the Supercars champion so even though the main game runs under a specific series name, it is still the ATCC as far as those governing the overall sport are concerned. Don't know if I agree with "derided" and as AVESCO came into being 23 years ago, there were a couple of years out of that first 10 you mention where "deriding" would have meant doing so to their own series.

Originally Posted by one five five

If you want to combine the two then how can you also claim going away from V8’s changes the series DNA, when non-V8s have been welcome to play for far longer than it was decreed V8s only?

Don't want to sound too nit-picky but I said going away from 8 cylinder engines in Vee configuration would change the current series DNA, not the DNA of the ATCC in its entirety - two completely different things.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Yet the ATCC trophy is awarded to the Supercars champion so even though the main game runs under a specific series name, it is still the ATCC as far as those governing the overall sport are concerned. Don't know if I agree with "derided" and as AVESCO came into being 23 years ago, there were a couple of years out of that first 10 you mention where "deriding" would have meant doing so to their own series.

AVESCO derided anything pre-them for almost a decade. It was only when Channel 7 secured the rights from 2007 that old footage started to get used again alongside the “retro” element which started becoming popular with sports in the mid-late 2000s, when all of a sudden things pre-1997 started to get celebrated.

Perhaps there was an agenda to push back in the early days of AVESCO?

Originally Posted by Tourer

want to sound too nit-picky but I said going away from 8 cylinder engines in Vee configuration would change the current series DNA, not the DNA of the ATCC in its entirety - two completely different things.

So they are two completely different things, but you want to combine them when it comes to the history?

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Yet the ATCC trophy is awarded to the Supercars champion so even though the main game runs under a specific series name, it is still the ATCC as far as those governing the overall sport are concerned. Don't know if I agree with "derided" and as AVESCO came into being 23 years ago, there were a couple of years out of that first 10 you mention where "deriding" would have meant doing so to their own series.

In the early days of Supercars, they didn't even award the ATCC to the Supercars champion.
It wasn't until someone else approached CAMS and wanted to run a championship to award the ATCC title to, that Supercars started to care about it.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by one five five

AVESCO derided anything pre-them for almost a decade.

Did they deride or did they simply ignore? 2 different things but I'll agree that they didn't say much about the history for the first 3-5 years.

Originally Posted by one five five

So they are two completely different things, but you want to combine them when it comes to the history?

Your argument is going circular again - removing V8s or adding other power plants would change the DNA of the current series, same as going Group A changed the DNA of the previous Group C cars, which is what I said.

You keep referring to the DNA of the entire ATCC, which has had a multiple number of iterations with their own DNA over the years and which the current series contributes to and is part of.

Those are the "two different things" that I refer to.