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Old 20 Oct 2017, 06:49 (Ref:3775156)   #251
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Thats how proper racing is. If you choose the wrong car, bad luck, try some different developments to speed it up.
That's Formula Libre.
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 07:05 (Ref:3775159)   #252
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That's Formula Libre.
Not Formula Libre at all

Formula Libre is mixing different categories together in the one race, eg... Formula 5000, Formula 2 and Formula 3 cars competing in the same race

We've had this kind of racing at countless race meetings over the decades.

Running the Super5000's and FT5000's in the same race would be proper Formula 5000 style racing.

Running one chassis or the other just makes it GP2....
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 07:26 (Ref:3775161)   #253
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I could only see that being successful if they BOP'd the series because otherwise teams would simply wait for testing results of each and buy the best package. They're currently quite different cars in many areas and I would be very surprised if they're within a small percentage of eachother in performance.

The S5000 still has the issue of not being crash tested (however the FT5000 needs to be re-evaluated as it's heavier than the original F Nippon Swift) but at least the FT5000 has had its tub properly tested in the past.

I still think the politics is going to dictate a S5000 chassis with a Coyote engine.
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 07:38 (Ref:3775164)   #254
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all two of them?

Expensive lesson for someone who chooses the wrong one
That's life - it how we used to run teams in F3 choosing between Ralt, Reynard, Dallara chassis plus a range of different engines, or F3000 with Ralt, Reynard, March & Lola chassis plus a range of engines too.

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Thats how proper racing is. If you choose the wrong car, bad luck, try some different developments to speed it up.
It would be cool - kinda throws back to the original F5000 with different chassis manufacturers (& engine builders - Tom Walkinshaw ran a Ford GAA V6 in F5000 at one stage!!).

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That's Formula Libre.
Nah - not Formula Libre at all, just the good old days coming back.

Personally I doubt they'd go for multi-chassis the way things are these days but it's nice to have a little dream session about it.
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 08:06 (Ref:3775169)   #255
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all two of them?

Expensive lesson for someone who chooses the wrong one
Both are owned by the same group now anyway... allegedly
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 08:32 (Ref:3775180)   #256
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It would be cool - kinda throws back to the original F5000 with different chassis manufacturers (& engine builders - Tom Walkinshaw ran a Ford GAA V6 in F5000 at one stage!!).
Most definitely. I remember Gossy developing a 6cyl Cosworth engine (3.4ltrs from memory) during the 1978 Rothmans Series, not to mention John McCormack who was running a Leyland engine in his cars at the time. Then we had the likes of the 'backyard specials' like the Begg chassis

And if you just wanted to plug and play, you could buy a Lola and a Chev and be on the grid in no time.

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Personally I doubt they'd go for multi-chassis the way things are these days but it's nice to have a little dream session about it.
Agree completely

A shame, but just the way things are sadly
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 08:32 (Ref:3775181)   #257
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All these examples being thrown around were different options designed to the same regulations, the 5000 options are not designed to the same regulations, I'm not sure they were built to any regulations, so the comparisons are pretty mute.
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 08:40 (Ref:3775182)   #258
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All these examples being thrown around were different options designed to the same regulations, the 5000 options are not designed to the same regulations, I'm not sure they were built to any regulations, so the comparisons are pretty mute.
BoP them if you have to, massage the specs of the cars over a few years and create a set of regulations that might encourage competition at some point in the future. If there is a 'long game' with their vision for this class of course?
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 11:08 (Ref:3775203)   #259
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BoP them if you have to, massage the specs of the cars over a few years and create a set of regulations that might encourage competition at some point in the future. If there is a 'long game' with their vision for this class of course?
Why would chassis choice give any advantages?

Categories like Carrera Cup or GP2 are popular since everyone knows they will have the same, or close to, the same equipment.

You only need to go to the Touring Car Masters thread to see disquiet about mega-dollar car builds up the front of the field, and inequality of equipment in a class where development has been allowed.

I'm all for formula racing, of course. But FT5000 is about budget racing and is not a "true" Formula. Obviously, the Spectrum and the Supashock are not built to the same rules, unlike the cars in Formula Holden or Formula 3 or F Ford which complied to the same regulation and can all merrily compete on the grid.

The true "anything goes" Formula Libre class only works in hill climb racing because the prize is not that prestigious and the people competing only have small budgets to prepare their cars, so even though there are no rules, nobody goes too crazy. Given a V8 Supercar budget to design a Formula Libre car and you will soon have some kind of crazy monster, posing a safety hazard by being way too fast for a dinky hillclimb track!

Give big budgets and a somewhat open regulation, then you get into all of those political stoushes like the "Nemo" Evo in Time Attack racing... "But the rules favour so-and-so!" "Sorry ol' chap, we are rewriting the regulations for not season!" "Not happy Jan!"
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 12:23 (Ref:3775223)   #260
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Why would chassis choice give any advantages?
Because it would allow the possibility of difference, rather than all the cars being the same


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Categories like Carrera Cup or GP2 are popular since everyone knows they will have the same, or close to, the same equipment.

You only need to go to the Touring Car Masters thread to see disquiet about mega-dollar car builds up the front of the field, and inequality of equipment in a class where development has been allowed.
Motor Racing was never supposed to be fair, equality in equipment has only become a priority when the wrong people got all the influence (ie...when the 'show' people got more important than the 'racing' people)

Isn't development at the essence of proper motor racing? And aren't formula cars the top of the motor racing tree? Inequality of equipment shows people are trying things, developing things, sometimes making mistakes, learning.

One make spec racing is boring. It might give off the rosy "its fair for everyone because they have the same stuff" vibe, but one make racing is not satisfactory for top level racing.

If we want this class to be something serious and build itself up over the next 10-20 years (which is what it will take, at least, the build open wheel racing back up in Australia), then we need to allow some difference, some development potential in the regs.

Or are we just looking for a 'different' support class to fill the gaps in the Supercar raceday schedule? In the short-term that is certainly all the class will be no matter the regs, but if we go for a one-make spec class with no development and a "Carrera Cup" mindset, then open-wheel racing in Australia will not go anywhere, and will die out again once Payce loses interest....
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Old 20 Oct 2017, 16:05 (Ref:3775268)   #261
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Isn't development at the essence of proper motor racing? And aren't formula cars the top of the motor racing tree? Inequality of equipment shows people are trying things, developing things, sometimes making mistakes, learning.
Of course!

You could certainly word the regulations in a way that allow scope for development, while prohibiting an all-out spending war. The Formula Ford regulations would be a good starting point, they seem to allow variety yet keep things in check by being strict about using a tube chassis and having no aero.


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Or are we just looking for a 'different' support class to fill the gaps in the Supercar raceday schedule?
I suspect this is indeed what Supercars management intends...


The downside I see is that development, means more cost. Instead of making 1 widget, the "haves" will be inclined to make 5 widgets and pick the best one.

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Old 20 Oct 2017, 20:02 (Ref:3775311)   #262
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Any single seater series where the drivers are not being brainwashed with the dream of becoming a F1 reserve driver would be welcome viewing to me
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Old 21 Oct 2017, 07:03 (Ref:3775366)   #263
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Because it would allow the possibility of difference, rather than all the cars being the same
Neither car has been designed to be as fast as possible.

The FT5000 has a reduced diffuser size compared to the original Formula Nippon, to make it slower, and the Coyote engine is detuned to only 500bhp, when it could make over 600bhp.

While the S5000 car doesn't even have a diffuser at all IIRC.

All that would change, if it was a competition to be as fast as possible!
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Old 21 Oct 2017, 07:18 (Ref:3775369)   #264
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The issue with trying to BOP the cars within similar performance is that it will add more design and development costs when ideally they want to press the go on what they already have and tooled for and get something underway ASAP. At the same time though if it helps one party maintain the worth in their investment then you never know.

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Old 21 Oct 2017, 11:21 (Ref:3775404)   #265
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Something I think needs to be kept in mind here is why we're even talking about an F5000 revival in the first place: Part of the reason the original class died out worldwide is because of runaway costs. The new series needs to keep that in mind - it's not going to be Formula One where people will like the prestige sufficiently that there will always be JUST enough people waiting in the wings to keep it going(lack of prestige compared to F1 being the other half of the equation for the death of the originals - the costs wouldn't have been an issue had F5000 been viewed on the same level as F1).

So in order to avoid that, we can't have both cars be running against each other in a development war. Either pick one, or BoP them. Bopping won't cost THAT much if we're talking about a class where there will be no chassis or engine development - with no development, once the cars are equalized there's no need for further expense.

Super5000 should be focused on putting on the best show possible. Much as I prefer the FT5000 car and say I hope Supercars sees the light on it, in reality I hope that they legitimately pick whichever car will put on the better show from a performance standpoint.

And I hope that the FT5000 car is the proper choice for it - even if they have to fit in Supercars engines instead of the Coyote.


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Old 21 Oct 2017, 11:53 (Ref:3775409)   #266
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You know, as I see the FT5000 car in it's revised form, I get a weird feeling of familiarity with the look... Not because of the Formula Nippon origin, it was something else... And it just clicked:



It looks an AWFUL lot like this Panoz DP01-Judd that occasionally runs in BOSS GP. No complaints here, just an observation.
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Old 21 Oct 2017, 13:09 (Ref:3775416)   #267
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This is a very good-looking racing car!
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Old 21 Oct 2017, 15:37 (Ref:3775426)   #268
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Part of the reason the original class died out worldwide is because of runaway costs.]
Cost had very little to do with why F5000 died out in the first place in Australia

Infact i'd say F5000 was cheaper than it's replacement Formula Mondial
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Old 24 Oct 2017, 01:01 (Ref:3776007)   #269
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Cost had very little to do with why F5000 died out in the first place in Australia

Infact i'd say F5000 was cheaper than it's replacement Formula Mondial
Very true.
Mondial was imported as part of the campaign to get an F1 event for Australia as AJ was world champ at that time.
I heard comments at the time that they were about double the cost of a competitive F5000and of course, being basically a control series, did not offer an opportunity for local constructors.
Not sure that a "control" F5000 series would have the same appeal as a series that allowed for Australaisan local construction. One of the attractions of the series at the time was the opportunity to see Matich, Elfin, McRae and Begg chassis competing with the Chevrons and Lolas etc.
Perhaps a control Coyote engine and wings but allowing some freedoms in chassis could capture the imagination. To some extent with the use of BOP clauses this could give a sense of variety, encouragement to local tech people, a degree of local pride while still providing competitive racing.
I can forsee that it would eventually be more of an alternative providing variety than a pure support class for Supercars.
By the way the weather on Saturday discouraged me from getting over to Surfers for a look. Any comments on how they looked and sounded?

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Old 24 Oct 2017, 04:47 (Ref:3776027)   #270
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Very true.
Mondial was imported as part of the campaign to get an F1 event for Australia as AJ was world champ at that time.
I heard comments at the time that they were about double the cost of a competitive F5000and of course, being basically a control series, did not offer an opportunity for local constructors.
Didn't Formula Mondial only last a couple years? Doesn't seem like something worth using to make a point about the cost of the series that died before it - doesn't seem to prove much of anything one way or another.

Regardless, I can't speak for Australia/NZ but I've always heard the cost to have a competitive run in US F5000 was on par with USAC IndyCar(some say it was more, but I understandably doubt that). Not the worst pricetag even for the era, but it didn't have the kind of financial backing needed to make that cost sustainable.
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Old 24 Oct 2017, 07:06 (Ref:3776035)   #271
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Regardless, I can't speak for Australia/NZ but I've always heard the cost to have a competitive run in US F5000 was on par with USAC IndyCar(some say it was more, but I understandably doubt that).
37 F5000's started that last US F5000 event in 1976, so budgets can't have been that far out of reason. The move away from F5000 in the USA was more political, the SCCA wanted to bring Can-Am and their 'crowds' back and jumped on the F5000 wagon which had big entrant numbers but not so big crowds by putting fenders on them.

The F5000 budgets for front-runners possibly were in USAC Championship Car territory, the leading team in SCCA F5000 was Carl Haas' team afterall
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Old 25 Oct 2017, 04:07 (Ref:3776299)   #272
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By 1980 the numbers weren't that great for F5000 in Australia outside of the Grand Prix, the rest of the Gold Star races that year they generally had only around a dozen cars or so actually starting the races even with the field being bolstered by the odd Formula Pacific or Formula 1 entry.
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Old 25 Oct 2017, 08:03 (Ref:3776328)   #273
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By 1980 the numbers weren't that great for F5000 in Australia outside of the Grand Prix, the rest of the Gold Star races that year they generally had only around a dozen cars or so actually starting the races even with the field being bolstered by the odd Formula Pacific or Formula 1 entry.
That was because the political campaign by the Formula Pacific proponents was successful, it made people think twice about investing in the formula seeing as there was a threat it might not be around for much longer. They said we needed to have our national Formula 1 as a relevant series to the rest of the world (kind of like happened with Formula 3 when it ousted Formula Holden)

Formula Pacific got generally pathetic fields from 1982 onwards outside of the AGP as well.

F5000 could have survived locally for a long time post-1980. We still had major teams investing in the class and building new cars (Porsche Cars Australia and Elfin), even with ground effects. What hurt it's image was the fact that the European Series and the US Series had gone away, so it was felt that we were left on our own pushing our barrow with the formula, hence the push for Formula Pacific from certain quarters. In reality we had the experience, the know-how and the parts to have run with the formula on our own.

This is the field that the Rothmans F5000 Series attracted in February 1979 (there is also a single F/Pacific and a single F1 car in the field).... then there is the crowd that no local open-wheel race in Australia has ever matched since (outside of the AGP & Gold Coast Indy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlqA8BAJvb4

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Old 26 Oct 2017, 03:35 (Ref:3776514)   #274
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A very good summation of what happened 155.
And thanks for the Oran Park link. Spectacular but not the sort of circuit that on which you would want to wrestle with an F5000 or a Theodore F1.
At that time we had a very significant number of drivers in, or on the fringes of F1. There were also a number involved in SCA and trans Am.
The thought seemed to be that we needed to have some folmula compatibility with Europe to allow our home grown talent to be able to get into the top levels overseas.
Interestingly the only formula which seemed to achieve that role was Formula Ford!
Mondial and F Pacific were dead ends. Formula Holden never achieved any acceptance with the public, wasn't noisy, not spectacular because of good aero.
That was also period when tin tops, IProd, Series Pro and Sports Sedans were providing plenty of variety a great racing.
I think that if we can replicate the noise and spectacle of F5000 with some degree of variety and a modern day level of reliability it will succeed.
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Old 26 Oct 2017, 05:36 (Ref:3776525)   #275
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That was because the political campaign by the Formula Pacific proponents was successful, it made people think twice about investing in the formula seeing as there was a threat it might not be around for much longer. They said we needed to have our national Formula 1 as a relevant series to the rest of the world (kind of like happened with Formula 3 when it ousted Formula Holden)

Formula Pacific got generally pathetic fields from 1982 onwards outside of the AGP as well.

F5000 could have survived locally for a long time post-1980. We still had major teams investing in the class and building new cars (Porsche Cars Australia and Elfin), even with ground effects. What hurt it's image was the fact that the European Series and the US Series had gone away, so it was felt that we were left on our own pushing our barrow with the formula, hence the push for Formula Pacific from certain quarters. In reality we had the experience, the know-how and the parts to have run with the formula on our own.

This is the field that the Rothmans F5000 Series attracted in February 1979 (there is also a single F/Pacific and a single F1 car in the field).... then there is the crowd that no local open-wheel race in Australia has ever matched since (outside of the AGP & Gold Coast Indy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlqA8BAJvb4
Commercial and spectator interest in Australian domestic open wheeler racing was always going to fall off a cliff after 1981.In May that year live or near live telecasts of F1 started in Australia.When the best drivers and teams in the world started coming into your house every other weekend it was always going to show up local racing by comparison.Exactly the same thing happened with domestic motor cycle racing when Grand Prix telecasts started in that sport.
Australia getting rounds of these world championships in 1985 and 1989 meant that interest was further reduced.Whatever runs is basically for the interest of competitors.Fans will choose to watch Lewis,Seb,Max and Dan rather than whoever is competing in a local series.
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