Bye Bye Klien/Jaguar and Ford in F1 !

[grumpy1]

andy_b both drivers (pizza and wilson) were scape goats.
The only reason they have had any success is Webbers ability to ring the neck of the thing to make it look good.

The Grumpy1

[Testure]

Red Bull are the real idiots here. In the face of all reason, they're constantly pushing "their own" drivers ahead of more talented choices. Remember how they wanted Bernoldi in the Sauber instead of Kimi? Bernoldi's a pretty handy driver, but it was plainly obvious from the first time Kimi sat in that car that he was the better talent. Luckily for Sauber, for Kimi and for Formula 1 in general, Peter Sauber wasn't interested in being pushed around.

Unfortunately, in Jaguar, Red Bull have found a team so desperate for cash that they're perfectly happy to have their driver decisions taken by a guy that makes manky fizzy drinks for a living. Fools the lot!

[spider]

Here's a few questions - who gets better PR from their motorsport activities: Jaguar or Audi? Which is spending more? What are Jaguar more famous for: F1 or Le Mans? Which should they be doing? Which is more relevant to the durability of their road cars, and better for trying out road-based technologies: a 24 hour endurance or a 2 hour sprint? Name one other F1 team that has such an ego-driven PR team? Name one other team that comes out and in the public domain questions their sponsors judgement and the ability of their driver in one statement?

This sea of green vision of Jac Nasser, where are they most likely to ever achieve that: F1, or Le Mans? Think Bentley for inspiration.

Which has had more positive Motorsport PR in the last 3 years: Bentley or Jaguar?

I could go on, but knowing people within the team, and working for a Jag magazine, it's prob best I don't...

[RTH]

In "Autosport" this morning even the Jaguar boss is now saying there is no guarantee they will still be in GP racing next year, which is a change in tone from only a few weeks ago.

[Kicking-back]

There will be a team though, whether it's Jaguar or in another form, according to that article.

[Super Tourer]

Good post spider - couldn't agree more.

Audi must be laughing their socks off at Jaguar. Another 1-2-3 at Le Mans to further cement their brand values of being sporting yet solid and reliable, whilst Jaguar languish effectively last in the F1 constructors table, two points behind a team run on half a shoestring, using their 2nd hand engines....

That's aside from all the races Audi have won in the US, another target market for Jaguar to raise their profile.

A no brainer - Ford need to hire an experience engineering company to design and run a sports car at Le Mans, and let Cosworth continue engine supply. If they send someone down to dust off the archives they will see that ALL Ford's F1 success has been as an engine supplier. But I guess the marketing men only look forwards, not backwards.

[PaulSands]

Given the other news around what chances of a privateer Red Bull-Johansson-Ford for 2005?

[Kicking-back]

I think 2006 is more likely for Johansson.

And it appears he's talking to McLaren.

[PaulSands]

McLaren...oooh good choice, lightningly swift and reliable

[spider]

Perhaps we should start a new topic for this chat, as it's a fascinating point we've all got opinions about.

Ok, I can tell you that we don't run any F1 specific articles anymore for these reasons:

The F1 PR team hadn't even heard of our mag, and we're the worlds best selling unofficial Jaguar Magazine?! There is zero communication between them and us, besides the odd press release. They are more interested in big Jaguar Racing PR stunts, instead of trying to communicate with Jaguar Car owners and relating the JC and JR brands. I pressed them about this before the season and they passionately believe that BAR has less support than they do, and that the Jaguar RACING brand is far stronger than that of BAR. If I was looking to promote my brand through F1 and I was weighing up JR or BAR - I know which one I'd go for - the cat wouldn't get the cream, lets put it like that...

Jaguar should give up on the F1 operation - it isn't working. It isn't working as they don't know who they're trying to appeal to, or more to the point, us as a Jaguar magazine don't understand the JR brand - it's certainly different from the road car effort.

Le Mans is where they should head to. It's cheaper, more relevant, has a very patriotic aspect to it (sea of Racing Green flags) and still has worldwide exposure. It really would be perfect. They could use the whole Germany Vs Britain marketing ploy too - the ultra efficient Audi's, versus the underdogs: Jaguar.

The F1 involvement has been just 5 seasons, and in ten years would be all but forgotten. The brand has made mistakes, but it'll have a negative long-term affect if they continue with this half-hearted attempt.

I'll repeat that EXISTING Jaguar owners have FAR more interest in sportscars and Le Mans - until his accident we used to run more on Will Percy in his Group C car - racing at a relative club level, than our F1 coverage.

JR don't relate to EXISTING Jaguar owners. If anything the F1 effort embarrasses them...

[Kicking-back]

The 2005 McLaren should be good.

And that would probably mean he could get Mercedes-contracted drivers.

[MRJUCY]

I think Klien is a good driver but agree he has been thrown into the deap end he would have been better to have spent a year or so testing at the very least but it's too late for could have now so hopefully he can stay in F1 long enough to mature. The same could be said for Button he probably came into F1 to early & has had some fairly ordinary years but he finally seems to be finding his groove this year & is doing well.

[KA]

Originally posted by spider


Jaguar should give up on the F1 operation - it isn't working. It isn't working as they don't know who they're trying to appeal to, or more to the point, us as a Jaguar magazine don't understand the JR brand - it's certainly different from the road car effort.

Le Mans is where they should head to. It's cheaper, more relevant, has a very patriotic aspect to it (sea of Racing Green flags) and still has worldwide exposure. It really would be perfect. They could use the whole Germany Vs Britain marketing ploy too - the ultra efficient Audi's, versus the underdogs: Jaguar.

The F1 involvement has been just 5 seasons, and in ten years would be all but forgotten. The brand has made mistakes, but it'll have a negative long-term affect if they continue with this half-hearted attempt.

I'll repeat that EXISTING Jaguar owners have FAR more interest in sportscars and Le Mans - until his accident we used to run more on Will Percy in his Group C car - racing at a relative club level, than our F1 coverage.

JR don't relate to EXISTING Jaguar owners. If anything the F1 effort embarrasses them...

I think what you've posted sums up the situation perfectly- I'm not an existing Jaguar owner, nor am I likely to be in the forseeable future, but speaking as someone for whom Jaguar's 80's/90's touring car and sportscar campaigns are a big part of the reason I became such a motor racing fan, frankly I wish the F1 team would just go away and stop dragging the Jaguar name through the mud on a fortnightly basis- Sir William Lyons must be turning in his grave at the antics of this shower......

[Nordic]

KA,
I think pettty much the same. The fact that the Jagaur F1 team could change its name and become something else highlights the fact that most current F1 teams are a commidity without any heritage that can be traded.
The Jag F1 team is no more or less a Jag than any other team up and down the pit lane.

If you go to Goodwood this weekend compare the number of people looking at the LM Jags to those looking at the F1 team. £ for £ which is better value for the long term? 10 years from now, no one would give the F1 car a 2nd glance, the LM jags on the other hand will still commend respect.

[Adam43]

I couldn't agree more. There are still Jaguar flags (the proper ones, not Jaguar racing ones) at Le Mans even now.
Go back to Le Mans and they will multiply. Positive exposure.

[spider]

I simply don't understand why they didn't just call the team JAGUAR. That's enough on it's own.

I used to write the F1 write-ups for our magazine, and used to get plenty of feedback on the F1 effort. All felt the same as I. If the team were TRULY Jaguar and related to the car division, then there would be no need to paint the cars in green and have a leaping cat on the machine - did the Silk Cut or Castrol Jaguar XJR9/10/11's come across as any less of a Jaguar? Nope. They were clearly Jaguar's - all motorsport fans, and Jaguar owners knew they represented the British manufacturer, now the F1 effort NEEDS the leaping cat and British Racing Green to make that correlation.

Look at Ferrari - they operate the F1 team out of Maranello - the link between the road and race division is clear to see. Sit in a 360 and look at the badge on the passenger side with the picture of the F1 2000 machine with the words: F1 World Championship winners: 2000, 2001, 2002.

Sit in an XK and is there even a mention of the Jaguar RACING brand? It's an irrelevant, and seperate brand.

The only part to Jaguar Racing that has encouraged positive words and a following is...Mark Webber! The rest of the brand is aiming far too up market and has lost touch with its real market - what about the potential X-Type owners?

Le Mans has to be the direction Jaguar has to focus. Sell the F1 outfit to Red Bull, as not even the Jaguar press understand what you're trying to achieve with JR...?

[N I Tram]

I think they'll sell up to Red Bull and go back to sports/touring car racing, as it's so mcuh easier and cheaprer to ge tto the front, and has a much clsoer link to the cars tehy sell and their heritage. Put the F1 effort down to experience and it should be forgotten before long.

[Super Tourer]

I am leaning to the view that Ford will seek to exit F1 as a factory team.

Jaguar Racing only survived after a thorough review of the operation, and that when it had seemed to be turning the corner. They have done nothing this year to encourage Ford to continue with it,they have made backward progress, and seemingly alienated their principal sponsor to boot.

Ford in Detroit seemingly have little or no interest in F1, and certainly don't want to fund it to a greater degree.

When the chairman of Ford allegedly says 'Who is this Irvine guy' at a board meeting, I think we can take it that despite being involved in one of the worlds most high profile global sports, even their own F1 effort is not on the Ford top brass' radar.

Audi have arguably achieved a greater, and more relevant, motor sport profile through sportscar racing than BMW, Mercedes and certainly Jaguar have in F1, and have probably spent less on their entire R8 sportscar program, than Mercedes and BMW have in 1 years F1 racing.

The R8 is already logged in the history books, will become one of the sportscar icons along with the Silk Cut Jags and Bentley's, and will be a car that Audi can wheel out at Goodwood festivals and the like, for years to come.

BTW: Sorry if this is slightly off topic but the conversation was leading this way!

[spider]

Super Tourer - perfectly put.

The F1 effort is a fruitless and pointless money-burning affair, and if I was back in Detroit I'd look into the Le Mans operation - head-hunt the guys behind the R8, and go about pushing through the sale of the F1 outfit.

[PaulSands]

I think if Jag/Ford pull out of F1 you'll be waiting a long time to see them back as a works effort in any form of motorsport

[Nordic]

The best way out for Ford would be to sell the F1 team, it is generating nothing but bad press and being whipped by Ferrari ever weekend must be painful.

A possible reason? The advancement of alternative fuels such as Deisel or Hybred. there is massive publicity awaiting the first team to win a major race with a car so powered and the withdrawel could be given a positive spin.

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by Nordic
The best way out for Ford would be to sell the F1 team, it is generating nothing but bad press and being whipped by Ferrari ever weekend must be painful.

It sure would be painful, especially after they blew the chance of buying Ferrari in the 60's.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by ASCII Man
It sure would be painful, especially after they blew the chance of buying Ferrari in the 60's.

And returned the favour by beating the Ferrari´s with their GT40´s.

[ASCII Man]

Yep, four years in a row iirc.

[PaulSands]

Lest we totally trash Ford lets just remember some of the great things they have contributed to the sport..three things leap to mind Formula Fiord, GT40's & DFV's