500kg

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

exactly which car are you thinking of there john?!

Your Mygale but don't believe any modern FF chassis is 19kg under weight after a race or even new and "dry"

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

infact - I think you may be partly right there - I think the 32kg was actually BEFORE we put the engine in the the car.

EFA

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by Triple J Motorsport

Your Mygale but don't believe any modern FF chassis is 19kg under weight after a race or even new and "dry"

Thought you meant Mygale - I was referring to the Swift.

[driftwood]

eg Listen folks, I'm getting on a bit now, all my other mates racing are a bit old as well. Because we are older, we have put on weight as we can't be bothered to diet/train/restrict our pie intake, so can we have the rules changed 'cos these skinny youngsters are whipping us.that is exactly the point!!- too busy to diet i like eating pies and anyone under the age of 30 shold be banned from FFord racing and can i fit twin webers please

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by driftwood

eg Listen folks, I'm getting on a bit now, all my other mates racing are a bit old as well. Because we are older, we have put on weight as we can't be bothered to diet/train/restrict our pie intake, so can we have the rules changed 'cos these skinny youngsters are whipping us.that is exactly the point!!- too busy to diet i like eating pies and anyone under the age of 30 shold be banned from FFord racing and can i fit twin webers please

Hehehehehe

I'm sure you can fit a pair of webers - if anyone asks, just tell 'em its ballast!

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

EFA

and up until this point I could follow everything you were saying................

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

and up until this point I could follow everything you were saying................

EFA + edited for accuracy.


HTH


(= hope that helps )

[Simon Hadfield]

The argument about adding weight is flawed, for our cars in period the car weight was 400kgs - when the bigger fire bottles came out and the fuel tank firewall the limit was raised to 420. So fire bottle and bulkhead add probably 6 to 7kgs so in most cars we prepare we dont have to max (min?) out body work etc and still have 10ish kgs of ballast - so far it has never been a problem to fix it securely. I weigh 89kgs (6' 2" and a fair amount of pies) so when I race against 65 kg drivers it is manifestly obvious that they have an advantage - as has been mentioned this not about career motor sport but having fun at weekends in similarly specced cars. What I resent is the attitude of the lighter drivers - if they simply admitted that they did not want to lose their advantage, fine, but to splutter on about "problems in fixing the ballast, its never been like this before, etc " is just procrastination!

[ffracer]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

So I may be being a bit thick here, but for every 100 seconds of driving you will be 4% (4 seconds) quicker for every 20kg saved. Or to put it another way, if you have a 15 minute race and your overwieght costs you just 1% than that equals 15mins x 60 seconds = 900 secs x 1% = 9 seconds.

Don't think its that simple really. Whats your source for that equation?

I'm not (and havn't said) saying (and havn't said) that weight is irrelevant, but there are other ways of improving your lap times, and most of it is in the drivers ability.

I didn't mention 20kgs in my post - I said a few wouldn't make the difference and it would be better to concentrate on other areas before asking other competitors to make allowances for anothers age/pie intake.

eg Listen folks, I'm getting on a bit now, all my other mates racing are a bit old as well. Because we are older, we have put on weight as we can't be bothered to diet/train/restrict our pie intake, so can we have the rules changed 'cos these skinny youngsters are whipping us.

By virtue of the fact the fact the rest of my post was ignored, I take it that your cars prepared to a Ferrariesque standard, and you have the driving ability and fitness of M. Schumacher, albiet a bit fat.

I have to agree with you, you are a bit thick and it isn't that simple (sorry, sorry, just couldn't resist it...)

A 4% improvement in acceleration, de-acceleration and cornering force doesn't straightforwardly translate into an overall 4% improvement in lap time. You'd need to do some fairly complicated mathematical modeling to work out in theory what the gain would be, but it will be significant over a lap.

In practice I guess most people think that even a 1Kg is worth saving - witness the queues at the weigh scales before qualifying at some meetings. I usually try to bring my undoubtedly Ferrariesque ff1600 in at between 421 and 422Kg at the end of race, but you are very welcome to run at 440Kg if you wish.

The equation f = m x a is derived from Newton's laws of motion.

The 20Kg number comes from comparing my weight with that of one of the "lightweight" posters, it's a realistic driver weight difference that a 500Kg rule could equalise.

It looks to me like under the guise of rather offensive "humour", you are trying fairly desperately to stop arguments in favour of a type of rule which is already being quite widely adopted in motorsport. All the bluster does not alter the fact that with all-up weight equalised, motor racing would be less about driver weight and more about driver skill (but still not just about it, obviously things like car prep, engine power etc are important as well)

Apart from that, and I am at least not ignoring the rest of your post on this occasion, I can't see much to respond to...

But I can help you add weight to your case - a better argument against equalising weights is that what should count as part of the "skill" equation are all the attributes of the driver eg driving skill (which for motorsport I would hope is the primary skill), but also weight, size, eyesight, reaction time etc etc ie everything about him/her.

The problem with this logic is that if one of the "secondary" characteristics, taken to extremes, gives an unbeatable advantage, then the sport becomes a mockery. Only people with this extreme characteristic, which is not central to the sport, can win. In the case of motorsport, races would be won by the few very light, but possibly poorly skilled drivers. Is this a good thing for the sport? Thinking this through has led to rules which seek to equalise or classify the physical characteristics of competitors in quite a few sports.

[driftwood]

who ever thinks that a light weight driver in a fford car will not have an advantage is dillusional
If VD 89 weighs 465 kg and spotty yoof jockey is 67 kg total wieght is 532 KG
if another VD 89 weighs 463 Kg and the jockey who ate all the pies raised 3 kids paid off half his 25 yr mortgage weighs 89kg the total weight is 552 kg and
we assume power is same at 112 bhp cars use the same tuner

the race is on down the revet straight at Snett from stand still to top gear and back to stand still before the back chicane please tell me who will win?

spotty yoof is the winner and that is without even considering the corners and the cars cornering dynamics regardless of how "good " the pilot is

do the power to weight ratio the yoof has 2 poss 4 bhp more?
I do not need Einsteins and his E=MC squared to have the final answer

times they are changing FFord is not 17-19 year old wannabes it is older larger guys having fun- i do not expect to beat the Tom bradshaws of the world he is young fearless and dad pays the repair bills ( ive been young fearless and dad does NOT pay my repair bills) but i would like the playing field leveled out a bit more
i cant loose 25 kg or i would be on a drip with a nurse standing over me but i can ask for ballast to be added to the cars

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i cant loose 25 kg or i would be on a drip with a nurse standing over me but i can ask for ballast to be added to the cars

'Can't'? are you sure you don't mean 'have no interest in trying to'?!!

My point is not that I am against having equal weight limits (ie. car and driver included) but that I don't agree with the 'we are a nation that is getting fatter so lets change the rules to suit' mentality. Whilst FF is not the pinnacle of motorsport it is and pretty much always has been, the first rung on the car racing ladder for those that aspire to making it to formula one and as such I would prefer that it is kept as pure to its roots as possible (ie. as low a weight as possible).

I am sure there are many of you so called 'pie enthusiasts' out there who don't agree though!

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i cant loose 25 kg or i would be on a drip with a nurse standing over me but i can ask for ballast to be added to the cars

'Can't'? are you sure you don't mean 'have no interest in trying to'?!!

My point is not that I am against having equal weight limits (ie. car and driver included) but that I don't agree with the 'we are a nation that is getting fatter so lets change the rules to suit' mentality. Whilst FF is not the pinnacle of motorsport it is and pretty much always has been, the first rung on the car racing ladder for those that aspire to making it to formula one and as such I would prefer that it is kept as pure to its roots as possible (ie. as low a weight as possible).

I am sure there are many of you so called 'pie enthusiasts' out there who don't agree though!

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by driftwood

who ever thinks that a light weight driver in a fford car will not have an advantage is dillusional
If VD 89 weighs 465 kg and spotty yoof jockey is 67 kg total wieght is 532 KG
if another VD 89 weighs 463 Kg and the jockey who ate all the pies raised 3 kids paid off half his 25 yr mortgage weighs 89kg the total weight is 552 kg and
we assume power is same at 112 bhp cars use the same tuner

the race is on down the revet straight at Snett from stand still to top gear and back to stand still before the back chicane please tell me who will win?

spotty yoof is the winner and that is without even considering the corners and the cars cornering dynamics regardless of how "good " the pilot is

do the power to weight ratio the yoof has 2 poss 4 bhp more?
I do not need Einsteins and his E=MC squared to have the final answer

times they are changing FFord is not 17-19 year old wannabes it is older larger guys having fun- i do not expect to beat the Tom bradshaws of the world he is young fearless and dad pays the repair bills ( ive been young fearless and dad does NOT pay my repair bills) but i would like the playing field leveled out a bit more
i cant loose 25 kg or i would be on a drip with a nurse standing over me but i can ask for ballast to be added to the cars

So are you saying that FF1600 should be aimed and marketed as a series for the older racer?

Surely not. It has always been aimed at the feeder series for something more expensive and faster.

I haven't said weight doesn't make a difference, but to believe that it is the only or main reason you can't beat a 'spotty yoof' is incorrect.

A 'spotty yoof' as you call them will still beat an older guy with imagination because they generally are more hungry (no pun intended) and more 'on it' generally.

In the main, older means slower. I think you will find that the spotty yoofs cars are also very well prepared with top, top equipment. Not saying anything about other peoples gear, but the combination of the two mean they will always be faster.

Thats why old buggers in F1 generally can't cut the mustard against younger hotshoes. Equipment is the same, they just can't go as fast.

My point is, and will remain, don't think that raising the weight limit will make older, lardy drivers THAT much faster, especially when they havn't got the car and driving to 100%.

I understand it helps to have the car as light as possible (even I'm not that thick!), but I don't bleat about his cars newer, he's on better tyres, he's lighter.

It's down to choice and natural selection. Same as they don't have 60kg, 5'3" rugby players.

Thats the rules.They were there when you started and they are there now.

Either diet or deal with it!

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

It's down to choice and natural selection. Same as they don't have 60kg, 5'3" rugby players.

Thats the rules.They were there when you started and they are there now.

Either diet or deal with it!

Exactly!!!

[driftwood]

1 never denied yoof over age - i have stated that the young have no fear ( pls read the comments i posted!) so they have a small advantage that i have lost over the years

2 I like pies & i am not going to give them up to race!
the point i am making is FFord Kent is a clubby formula with the demographics changing from the young wannabes to the older driver ( again read my post i already stated this)
3 raising the weight limit will not make fat bstd any faster ( thats why i want to fit twin webers!) it will make lightweight guy a bit slower
i cant get close enough to nudge his gearbox cos he has less weight to drag down the straight and can brake a gnats later and i cant hit my target!

4 the rules where fine 20 years ago i was younger then so it was level playing field i was not a spotty yoof but i was young n stupid ( Just old & wiser now) and the average driver age has risen

also having car driver weight limit at 500 kg will stop the silly money being spent on lightweight nuts bolts rads bodywork etc

[ffracer]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

My point is not that I am against having equal weight limits (ie. car and driver included) but that I don't agree with the 'we are a nation that is getting fatter so lets change the rules to suit' mentality. Whilst FF is not the pinnacle of motorsport it is and pretty much always has been, the first rung on the car racing ladder for those that aspire to making it to formula one and as such I would prefer that it is kept as pure to its roots as possible (ie. as low a weight as possible).

We're in danger of getting off-thread here, but I don't agree with your view on the roots of ff racing. These were about making single seater racing available to the everyday person, on an equal basis at a low cost. This actually originally included a "selling plate" rule, where you had to agree to sell your car for (I think) £1000 to anyone who wanted to buy it. This was dropped early on, but the idea of low cost and equalisation of performance (by controlling engines, tyres, chassis design, gearboxes) remained central to the formula. Actually the weight limit was set rather high for a car of its type, to ensure that the cars were reasonably strong, and could be designed to the weight limit at reasonable cost. In a sense having a combined weight limit which levels the playing field for the everyday person is entirely within the spirit of the formula.

In its hey day ff did become a stepping stone to F1 for quite a few drivers but I don't believe this is the case today, and I do not believe that the best future for ff1600 will be now secured by framing rules which seek to recover this lost status. Instead I think we need to frame rules which the greatest number of existing and potential competitors will be happy with, without diminishing the experience of driving and racing an ff1600 car.

[driftwood]

I assume FFracer is not a pie lover but a realist

[ffracer]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I assume FFracer is not a pie lover but a realist

Weers ma pi??

[driftwood]

sorry i ate it