WTCR Race of Netherlands Round 10-11 & 12

[PawUloN]

Originally Posted by luckn002

No stream again? Very disappointing.

Stream is only for race 1, races 2 & 3 are on Eurosport

[Tarzaan]

WTCR is a crap.

Hyundai has a good car + they paid for 4 top drivers.

In a single brand series all 4 Hyundai guys has to finish in the top8 every time.

And what they do with their BoP? They force these top drivers to the back of the field.

Driver skills doesn't matter, engeneering skills doesn't matter.

[Tarzaan]

Originally Posted by keviiinn

Where was the BoP hammer when Citroen was making an embarrassment of the WTCC?

In the TC1 times they just froze the advantage of the Citroen by their stupid joker system. Like F1 did with Mercedes engines.

[Juntos]

Back in the day Eurosport Events needed Citroen to keep WTCC alive. The BoP was "conditioned" by the humour of Mr Matton.

Originally Posted by Tarzaan

In a single brand series all 4 Hyundai guys has to finish in the top8 every time.

Even if you have a point I can't agree with this point. Hyundai drivers are not as good as some paint them here.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by luckn002

No stream again? Very disappointing.

Last couple of events races are quickly afterwards uploaded to Youtube.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Tarzaan

WTCR is a crap.

Hyundai has a good car + they paid for 4 top drivers.

In a single brand series all 4 Hyundai guys has to finish in the top8 every time.

And what they do with their BoP? They force these top drivers to the back of the field.

Driver skills doesn't matter, engeneering skills doesn't matter.

Do some research on how a BoP series works. Thanks to this ruleset manufacturers don't have to spend huge amounts of money and even the smaller reams can be competitive. And talent is still needed, see what Jaap van Lagen did in the TCR Europe races.

[FIRE]

It's difficult to overtake at Zandvoort but still I enjoyed the races, especially race 2 & 3.

Except for the Hyundai and Alfa the BoP seems okay.

[jakew7498]

Originally Posted by FIRE

It's difficult to overtake at Zandvoort but still I enjoyed the races, especially race 2 & 3.

Except for the Hyundai and Alfa the BoP seems okay.

Agree on both points. There were some really competitive races. Definitely bump the Hyundai up. Though it was nice to see different cars at the front.

[iceman-1987]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Do some research on how a BoP series works. Thanks to this ruleset manufacturers don't have to spend huge amounts of money and even the smaller reams can be competitive. And talent is still needed, see what Jaap van Lagen did in the TCR Europe races.

ok so it's normal that 3 world champions like tarquini bjork and muller were on the same level of 2 amateur drivers like the PRICE Bernhard van Oranje-Nassau and Michael Verhagen!

good to know....

next step of bop will be take off one wheel to hyndai in case they should win again...

[Mark0994]

Originally Posted by iceman-1987

ok so it's normal that 3 world champions like tarquini bjork and muller were on the same level of 2 amateur drivers like the PRICE Bernhard van Oranje-Nassau and Michael Verhagen!

good to know....

next step of bop will be take off one wheel to hyndai in case they should win again...

Look like it's normal that Tarquini, Bjork, Muller and Michelisz are half second faster then TCR International and Indy Light Champion (Vernay), 3 time BTCC Champion (Shedden), 2 time BTCC champion (Thompson), Guerrieri who fight on equal terms with Michelisz and Bjork last year (truth to be told he was faster then both Bjork and Michelisz but Michelisz was in fight for championship), and also Fabrizio Giovanardi was always faster then Tarquini. Last year he drove DSG Leon with broken turbo and he was slightly slower then champion Baldan, and now he can't get in points...


Good to know that

They need to lower Hyundai to 80mm and then it will be good

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by iceman-1987

ok so it's normal that 3 world champions like tarquini bjork and muller were on the same level of 2 amateur drivers like the PRICE Bernhard van Oranje-Nassau and Michael Verhagen!

good to know....

next step of bop will be take off one wheel to hyndai in case they should win again...

Read my comment of post #32!

And like Mark says is it normal they make a joke of drivers Vernay and Shedden? The Hyundai drivers are good but not from a different planet.

[iceman-1987]

[QUOTE=Mark0994;3823942]Look like it's normal that Tarquini, Bjork, Muller and Michelisz are half second faster then TCR International and Indy Light Champion (Vernay), 3 time BTCC Champion (Shedden), 2 time BTCC champion (Thompson), Guerrieri who fight on equal terms with Michelisz and Bjork last year (truth to be told he was faster then both Bjork and Michelisz but Michelisz was in fight for championship), and also Fabrizio Giovanardi was always faster then Tarquini. Last year he drove DSG Leon with broken turbo and he was slightly slower then champion Baldan, and now he can't get in points...


exacatly!! those 4 drivers should be half second faster cause they are the best. they have more experiences they have more skills to develop car and ofc they have more talent.

I loved Thompson in past but in last years he just thought to drink capirinhas. I loved Piedone but he drives the worst car ever made and yet he couldn't even test and develop.

those other drivers u wrote I dont even take in consideration...

[FIRE]

In that case we don't have to discuss any longer.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Originally Posted by FIRE

And talent is still needed, see what Jaap van Lagen did in the TCR Europe races.

To be honest, Jaap van Lagen wouldn't have been able to do that in WTCR. There's a difference in the level of drivers.

We were discussing this and the Hyundai BoP issue this weekend. The fact that Hyundai scored ZERO points means the BoP was a joke. But even without that, there was never a moment in the races where you thought 'wow'.

Looks like something has to be done about power-to-weight ratio or make the tyres less durable. Right now if everyone has similar cars it's one line of cars - up to the point where someone makes a mistake. If not, qualifying order = finish order.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Marcel ten Caat

To be honest, Jaap van Lagen wouldn't have been able to do that in WTCR. There's a difference in the level of drivers.

You are missing the point. It shows better drivers can make a difference.

Originally Posted by Marcel ten Caat

We were discussing this and the Hyundai BoP issue this weekend. The fact that Hyundai scored ZERO points means the BoP was a joke.

But in the previous races Hyundai's BoP was also a joke. WTCR needed something to do.

Originally Posted by Marcel ten Caat

But even without that, there was never a moment in the races where you thought 'wow'. Looks like something has to be done about power-to-weight ratio or make the tyres less durable. Right now if everyone has similar cars it's one line of cars - up to the point where someone makes a mistake. If not, qualifying order = finish order.

IMO the races were entertaining. The track is just not great for overtaking, especially with a quality grid like in WTCR.

[S griffin]

This is a series with some of the best drivers in it. I’d rather see an equivalency formula than BoP, as it doesn’t seem fair. But so far it seems we have had good racing at some great tracks around the world

[PawUloN]

I think that Hyundai performed poorly because it was both hit with BoP AND carrying the success ballast, called "compensation weight", from when it had an advantage. I believe it's calculated per event, so in Portugal they should be considerably lighter, where BoP alone will do the job of keeping the cars evenly matched. Hopefully the 4 Hyundai drivers will come back to the front, but not dominate so much as they did in previous events.

[S griffin]

I think it was the worse case scenario for Hyundai. Hopefully they will have a better race next time. We’ll see how good they are. They’ve got excellent drivers too

[Marcel ten Caat]

Originally Posted by FIRE

You are missing the point. It shows better drivers can make a difference.

Better drivers can make a difference in a mediocre field. Hence I was saying that in a more level playing field with all top drivers, he wouldn't have been able to do this. ;-)

[Fechna]

With only half the compensation weight in TCR Europe Hyundai did pretty well. So the question is, whether Hyundai would be as fast as the rest, if the compensation weight would be equal for all cars. I think the bop might be right now. Everyone who thinks that Tarquini, who was axed by Honda as a works driver for “loosing“ his edge, or Michelisz who at this point never won a internationally important championship and was the obvious Nr.2 driver to Monteiro till his accident, are up to a second faster per lap as Shedden, World Champion Huff, or Vernay, should look for another past time leisure. Fishing is nice, or golfing, swimming, maybe reading?

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Fechna

With only half the compensation weight in TCR Europe Hyundai did pretty well. So the question is, whether Hyundai would be as fast as the rest, if the compensation weight would be equal for all cars. I think the bop might be right now. Everyone who thinks that Tarquini, who was axed by Honda as a works driver for “loosing“ his edge, or Michelisz who at this point never won a internationally important championship and was the obvious Nr.2 driver to Monteiro till his accident, are up to a second faster per lap as Shedden, World Champion Huff, or Vernay, should look for another past time leisure. Fishing is nice, or golfing, swimming, maybe reading?

This post made me laugh, but it is also a very good point. Easy to remember the older driver's successes, and gloss over their recent-year struggles.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Fechna

With only half the compensation weight in TCR Europe Hyundai did pretty well. So the question is, whether Hyundai would be as fast as the rest, if the compensation weight would be equal for all cars. I think the bop might be right now. Everyone who thinks that Tarquini, who was axed by Honda as a works driver for “loosing“ his edge, or Michelisz who at this point never won a internationally important championship and was the obvious Nr.2 driver to Monteiro till his accident, are up to a second faster per lap as Shedden, World Champion Huff, or Vernay, should look for another past time leisure. Fishing is nice, or golfing, swimming, maybe reading?

Swimming is the best option, at least they'll be able to burn some calories

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Marcel ten Caat

Better drivers can make a difference in a mediocre field. Hence I was saying that in a more level playing field with all top drivers, he wouldn't have been able to do this. ;-)

But talent makes still a difference.

[GM10]

With his TCR Europe qualifying time, van Lagen would have qualified eighth on Sunday and seventh on Monday in the WTCR. With a +30kg Audi compared to the WTCR Audis.

The thing I didn't understand is why Azcona in the TCR Europe was so faster than WTCR Cupras, with +45kg, in both qualifying and races.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by GM10

The thing I didn't understand is why Azcona in the TCR Europe was so faster than WTCR Cupras, with +45kg, in both qualifying and races.

Azcona seems to have far more talent than Oriola, let alone Filippi.