Production cars as good as pre-1994 BTCC??

[Dan Friel]

Just a thought, are they??

Would be interested to compare lap times, and numbers on the grid...

If the 2 compare, why not scrap the 7 Tourers (next year) and concentrate on some decent racing??

[hunttheshunt]

Very funny, Dan! The 7 (now 9, by season end 14, next year 20+?) tourers are gearing up into a quality formula and yes they are important. By 2003 hopefully the BTCT and BTCP will be seperate series, the ETCC will have followed the BTCC rules, and remember that 1994 was 7 years ago!

[runnyhunny]

Super Production? Nah... it's a dead-end formula.

I'd like to see it scrapped - everyone should switch to Touring!

[vauxhall]

Originally posted by runnyhunny
Super Production? Nah... it's a dead-end formula.

I'd like to see it scrapped - everyone should switch to Touring!

Your sooooo right!

[Sodemo2]

The production cars might provide close racing, but they sure are dull, and when you look at thing s like the DTM, you have to say that if we had adopted production spec cars solely for the BTCC, we'd have been a laughing stock. The cars need to be FAST and spectacular to watch, production cars are not.

[KA]

I'm not sure I'd use the words 'dead-end' formula to describe something which has been adopted(with some local variations..)almost as widely as Super Touring was- & this year's BTCC would look pretty sick without them...
Don't get me wrong- I'm glad the BTCC hasn't gone down the Super Production route as some countries did, but they do seem to produce good close racing

[Craig]

Dead-end formula ? Dull ? My arse! The NSC of last year, and this year's production class have offered far far more entainment than anything that Super Touring ever did.

It's fair to say that the early nineties BTCC was probably better in terms of the quality of the drivers, but give me the production class anytime - at least until the touring class picks up and can put on a better show.

In any case, Richard West told us that his firm aim is to have a British Touring Car Championship and a British Production Car Championship when the time is right - each with a feature and a sprint race. Let's hope that things pick up for him soon and this can happen asap...

[knowlesy59]

Originally posted by Craig Antill
In any case, Richard West told us that his firm aim is to have a British Touring Car Championship and a British Production Car Championship when the time is right - each with a feature and a sprint race. Let's hope that things pick up for him soon and this can happen asap...

i can't wait

[Geva racing]

Super Production cars are not dull and here in Holland they provide excellent racing. last race a factory Renault Clio almost rolled over in the harepin had it not been for a very unlucky JJ Motorsport BMW.

We are seeing small but intense grids and things are looking up. At the end of the season we suspect to have 8 BMW 320i E46's 6 Renault Clio's 2 Lexus IS200's 2 Alfa 147's 3 Renault Meganes 1 Honda integra and 1 Vauxhall Astra. and the race in Holland are very decent and some are excellent.

I enjoy super touring and the new BTCC formula but Super Production is by no means a lower championship, possibly even better.

[Geva racing]

is this car not spectacular?

[hunttheshunt]

I enjoy SP but they don't send shivers down my soine like ST's did and this years BTCT cars do. I can't wait until there is a BTCC and a BPCC-that will be the day when both series boom!

[Sodemo2]

Well i still haven't seen the new BTCT cars yet, but the class b compared to the super touring cars were SLOWWWWW. If they had 2.5l engines, maybe then they would have been a viable alternative - even to the BTCT.
My Problems with the BTCP is:

They look slow
can't corner at (really) high speed
the cars don't look nice (like the ST did)
Don't sound loud enough.

But ill admit the racing is probably some of the best you'll see, but i want a balance between good 'racing' and spectacular action, when i first saw Super Tourers the first think that blew me away was the braking power (I was standing on the inside of Lodge at Oulton PK for warm-up) in 1998, but the cars could still overtake.

[redshoes]

Have you actually been to a race meeting and seen them 'in the flesh' this year ?

>They look slow
They only look slow when on the same track as faster (SuperTouring) cars. 20 BTCP cars at close quarters and you don't even notice the alledged lack of speed.

>can't corner at (really) high speed
No but they can corner with 2 or more cars side by side.

>the cars don't look nice (like the ST did)
Don't know, matter of taste realy

As for braking, try standing at the Thruxton complex (or Knickerbrook chicane at Oulton next week) and what for the tyre smoke.

I was a lateish convert to National Saloons (wasn't overly impressed when it first ran to SP rules 3(?) years back) but last year's NSC and this year's BTCP have been great stuff.

That said I'd still like to see the BTCT cars succeed.

[Dan Friel]

I've done a little comparison..

BTCC 1995 - Thruxton lap record 1 min 19 sec (proper downforce wings and all)

Production Car 2001 - Thruxton 1 min 22 sec (no downforce)

So i'm presuming that the 1994 BTCC cars (best ever year maybe) were of similar speeds (with no wings)..

The NSC cars have provided the best action for the last 2 years, although they weren't that good before that... Sure I'd like to see the Touring Cars suceed, but if they can't provide the entertainment - how can it??

And I certainly don't believe that this years BTCC cars are spectactular - not compared with the 'slow' cars of the mid 1990's...

[SPOONERBORO]

if we are in comparison mood did u realise that paul rivett's time of 1:24.052 in qualifying for the Renault Clio CUp would have actually been good enough for 11th place on the Production car grid i say chuck the clios into the feature race too!!

wow 25+ clios barrreling into oll hall at oulton park alongside 20+ production and say 8 tourers it only spells one thing major pile - up right who is joining me to protest outside richard west's house!!

[vauxhall]

1997 - Anthony Reid - 47sec @ Brands Hatch indy
2001 - Yvan Muller - 49sec @ Brands Hatch indy

BTW: Graham hill has changed so they carnt go flat out into the corner!

What lack of pace???

[redshoes]

Graham Hill is completely different. That one corner is probably worth a second a lap. The FFord guys use a completely different set of gear ratios. You can't really compare the times.

[Sodemo2]

Hey, im not saying the BTCP isn't any good, far from it, im just saying that with a couple of extras it could be MEGA!
Bigger exhausts and bigger wheels would be great.

But like I said, id rather see a 'spectacular' car follow another 'spectacular' car (ie Super Touring) round for a few laps then make a move. I said before I'd like to see a balance between great racing and spectacular handling cars.

This is just my view, id much rather see a pack of 20 Super Tourers than 20 BTCT cars.

[Marshal]

Originally posted by Sodemo2
Hey, im not saying the BTCP isn't any good, far from it, im just saying that with a couple of extras it could be MEGA!
Bigger exhausts and bigger wheels would be great.

But like I said, id rather see a 'spectacular' car follow another 'spectacular' car (ie Super Touring) round for a few laps then make a move. I said before I'd like to see a balance between great racing and spectacular handling cars.

This is just my view, id much rather see a pack of 20 Super Tourers than 20 BTCT cars.

To me the current regs seem to be betwixt and between, either you want spectacular racing (BTCP) or spectacular cars (DTM, Aussie V8's). Though I haven't seen BTCT cars yet I certainly didn't find ST cars spectacular, not after RS 500's

[BTC-P fan]

Is that the same Geva Racing that ran Ricardo van der Ende in the 1997 Dutch FFord and the Festival?

[KA]

Tarquini's pole position at the 1994 BTCC opener was somewhere in the 1m 19's, so we're looking at a couple of seconds a lap difference (bearing in mind the effects of the circuit being resurfaced)

Any change in cars takes time to get used to- the early Super Tourers looked quite slow and unexciting after the Group A RS500's- and they hadn't always produced great racing. I haven't seen this years cars yet, so will be interested to see how they compare to ST. Certainly production cars didn't look great against ST last year, but they didn't look so bad in isolation in NSC races

[Sodemo2]

I know I still haven't seen this years cars yet, so i'll reserve my full judgement till i do.
But I found the ST's very exciting to watch, but i never really saw the RS500's, (well I was about 9 and don't remember them)

[Sodemo2]

Well I know that the BMW 95' 318si was quoted as having 285 BHP.
But I think most of the power in super tourers came from the acceleration, rather than top end power.

Don't forget though, the Alfa 94' will have had worse brakes, and is that with or without its controversial rear wings?

[KA]

Originally posted by Sodemo2
Well I know that the BMW 95' 318si was quoted as having 285 BHP.
But I think most of the power in super tourers came from the acceleration, rather than top end power.

Don't forget though, the Alfa 94' will have had worse brakes, and is that with or without its controversial rear wings?

Tarquini's Thruxton pole was set with the wing kit- it was the first round, and Alfa showed up with the wings fully-extended, having run without the extra bits in testing if memory serves...
I remember reading that someone remarked on how quick they were, and Cleland allegedly replied 'DTM cars usually are'

[John Batchelor]

Coming from fiesta's and only in Year 3 of racing.......BTCP feels prety quick to me, particularly last week through Church........