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Old 2 Nov 2005, 14:17 (Ref:1450442)   #1
chunterer
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F1 WDC since 1980 - Who won it, who should've?

I mentioned breifly on the Prost v Senna thread and another one some time ago that perhaps a decent topic of discussion would be the Drivers title over the last 20 odd years.

I've had a quick look to see if this has been done beofre, but i couldn't find one?

Anyway listed below is the WDC's since 1980, and IMO (sure to be contentious, or obvious? the drivers who should've won it that years and then those who would have if they had been in the right car, situation

The first column (THE CHAMP) is fact, the second column (THE GUY WHO SHOULD'VE WON IT) is contentious, and the third column is pure fantasy and conjecture on my part I.E, if they had right car, hadn't had an accident, hadn't missed races, not ceded to team orders at certain races etc...

Where i've left a column blank, is where i feel there is no obvious candidate or solution.

Year Champ Who should've Who would've
1980 Jones Piquet Gilles ?
1981 Piquet Reutemann Gilles ?
82 Rosberg Pironi Gilles ?
83 Piquet Prost Would Gilles have taken it again?
84 Lauda Prost Alboreto (car let him down)
85 Prost Prost
86 Prost Mansell
87 Piquet Piquet
88 Senna Prost
89 Prost Senna
90 Senna Prost Mansell (led loads didn't he?)
91 Senna Senna
92 Mansell Mansell
93 Prost Prost
94 Schuey Hill Senna?
95 Schuey Hill If still alive Senna
96 Hill JV ditto above
97 JV JV ditto above
98 Hakkinen DC DC
99 Hakkinen Schuey Schuey?
2000 Schuey Hakkinen Hakkinen/DC
01 Schuey Schuey
02 Schuey Schuey
03 Schuey JPM JPM/Kimi
04 Schuey Schuey
05 Alonso Kimi Kimi


This may not make complete sense but i figured that it was the simplest method of following form displayed in a given season and answering questions we always raise about who won titles without the quickest car or who won titles because their rivals broke down too many times or made mistakes that cost them.

Some of you may want to delve further back than i have but this pretty much covers the period since i first got into motorsport and don't feel my knowledge is sufficient enough prior to that.

So come on folks discuss!!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 14:25 (Ref:1450446)   #2
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There's not a single world title there been won by anyone who didn't deserve it.

It's scoring the points under the rules of the season that counts.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 14:35 (Ref:1450454)   #3
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Agreed i don't doubt any of them deserve their laurels, but using our understanding of the sport, and a bit of license it's fascinating to assess how things might have been different....

I.E, If Reutemann had been bit more consistent in '81 and not had that dreadful last race and sewed up the crown - would he have carried on for a few more years against the newer guys of the mid 80's?

If Mansell hadn't had so much unreliability how many titles would he have won ( '86, '90 and even '91?) to add to the dominant '92 season and how would this have impacted on the number that both Prost and Senna ended up with - furthermore how many would Schuey be on now if Senna had been able to see though that period of '94-97 when the Williams was the best car in the field?

Then there's the hypothetical question about Gilles - surely he'd have taken the '82 and maybe '83 crowns? I reckon that the '83 Ferrari would have been right on par with Renault and Brabham if he (and Pironi) had been driving it, no disrespect to Rene and Patrick but they were never consistently ' on it. And then Alboreto did a cracking job in '84 but the Ferrari dramatically fell off the pace - would a more aggressive driver like Gilles had kept it on par with Prost's Mclaren?

Surely there's some top debate to be had here people!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 15:25 (Ref:1450499)   #4
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Oh, please I don't mind some good debate, but please refrain the usual bickering around one point - don't expect to change anyone's opinion - that will go through pages and pages, spoiling others users opinions. Ok ?
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 15:33 (Ref:1450505)   #5
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Well i doubt there's much scope for any pointless bickering on this thread which has been devised for analysis and debate.

I'll be very disappointed if this thread which i've put a lot of thought into is ruined by that.

So Bononi, please add your thoughts to the thread....
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 16:28 (Ref:1450561)   #6
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Originally Posted by chunterer
I'll be very disappointed if this thread which i've put a lot of thought into is ruined by that.
Don't worry, We'll be watching this one closely.

Let people come and play
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 16:41 (Ref:1450572)   #7
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It's an interesting thread but unfortunately "Could've Would've Should've" is not relevent . IMO whoever amassed the most points (under the rules of that season) is the deserved winner. I take your point about Mansell but there is the view amongs some of the "experts" in F1 that he was unduly harsh with his cars because of his driving style which may explain why he had more mechanical problems than most!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 16:56 (Ref:1450591)   #8
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Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......

As for Mansell, he seemed to have inferior reliability irrespective of anything else. less than Piquet, Patrese, de Angelis and Prost. Less in turbos, less in NAs, less with ground effects, less with semi-automatic gearboxes, and so on. If he had learnt to work around that, he may not have been as fast as he intermittantly was. It may be that if he had won a title by the end of 1990, he would have stuck to his word and retired. Who might have landed in that dominant 1992 Williams then? Or would Patrese have become perhaps the most mediocre World Champion ever?

Senna probably would have won a further world championship without Imola. He was a long way behind in 1994, but the car was getting better and Benetton surely feared him more than Hill. 1995 should have been easy, but I think that may have been the point at which Ayrton retired. On the other hand, perhaps none of the JV debates would have happened (in the f1 forum at least) if he had continued and JV had never got into F1?
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 19:15 (Ref:1450734)   #9
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BootsOnTheSide - I believe before they signed Mansell for '91, Williams came very close to signing Jean Alesi. If Alesi had taken that and Mansell had retired afterall... who knows!

Plus I remember reading somewhere on a website about Ayrton Senna that in his diaries (or something like that) he'd planned to retire from F1 at the end of 1999. I don't know if that's true or not, however.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 19:36 (Ref:1450747)   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......
I don't agree. Pironi only lost the championship because of his accident in German GP, so with a car as good as Ferrai 126 C2 (By Harvey Postlethwaite), which also won the constructor's championship that year, Gilles was really likely to have won the DC.

The fact is that Gilles didn't belong at that Formula 1 era. He should have been born 20 or 25 years ago, when the driver was the absolute master of the race instead of the car. Nevertheless, I think he should have won the 1979 championship when he "let" Jody Schecter win it because Jody was named first driver (same thing Gilles expexted from D. Pironi in Imola in 82 but never received it...), and the 1982 championship if...

But as Murray said once, 'if' is a reversed 'F1', so Gilles is just a crownless champion in my heart. Looking forward to watching the movie for him...
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 19:39 (Ref:1450753)   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......

Senna probably would have won a further world championship without Imola. He was a long way behind in 1994, but the car was getting better and Benetton surely feared him more than Hill. 1995 should have been easy, but I think that may have been the point at which Ayrton retired. On the other hand, perhaps none of the JV debates would have happened (in the f1 forum at least) if he had continued and JV had never got into F1?

I know Gilles was ****ed off after Imola, but given how may risks he took he might have come undone at Zolder either way.

And I don't think 1995 would have been an easy championship for Senna. I'm sure that Benetton and Schumacher would have approached things differently had they been competiting against Senna instead of Hill. Besides, the one thing a driver can't beat is age. Sooner or later, it will catch up with him.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 20:16 (Ref:1450790)   #12
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senna would have been 35 - schumacher is almost 37!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 21:05 (Ref:1450833)   #13
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I don't think Senna would have been past his best at that point - remember that Damon was about the same age. Drivers lose motivation and willingness to put in 100% before they lose the speed, and I really think Ayrton would still have had it.

I think Alesi had already decided to go to Ferrari instead of Williams before Mansell decided to return to the team, so that's not the deciding factor.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 22:54 (Ref:1450923)   #14
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Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......

As for Mansell, he seemed to have inferior reliability irrespective of anything else. less than Piquet, Patrese, de Angelis and Prost. Less in turbos, less in NAs, less with ground effects, less with semi-automatic gearboxes, and so on. If he had learnt to work around that, he may not have been as fast as he intermittantly was. It may be that if he had won a title by the end of 1990, he would have stuck to his word and retired. Who might have landed in that dominant 1992 Williams then? Or would Patrese have become perhaps the most mediocre World Champion ever?

Senna probably would have won a further world championship without Imola. He was a long way behind in 1994, but the car was getting better and Benetton surely feared him more than Hill. 1995 should have been easy, but I think that may have been the point at which Ayrton retired. On the other hand, perhaps none of the JV debates would have happened (in the f1 forum at least) if he had continued and JV had never got into F1?
I think JV would have found his way into Formula One at some stage. As I recall, the Big E was very keen on having a North American get into Formula One and succeed (Andretti was a complete failure in the McLaren) and with a surname like "Villeneuve", it was very attractive from a marketing standpoint. Leaving aside debates as to whether he merits a seat in 2006, up until 1998 (and possibly 1999, but the BAR's complete lack of reliability that year made it too difficult for JV to demonstrate his talents), JV was a very talented driver and would have merited a seat on his own. There was an interview with JV I heard earlier this year (in May, I believe) which was recorded in February 2005, where JV briefly mentioned that in 1995, Ferrari were very interested in hiring JV, but JV had his sights set on Williams, so didn't really entertain the offer from Ferrari.

I don't know whether I recall my Formula One history all too well, but I thought that Alan Jones was in contention to win the WDC in 1981 until his teammate disobeyed "team orders" and won the race, instead of moving over for Jones.

The interesting thing about 1979 was that while Sheckter won the WDC, wasn't it Jones who won the most races and Gilles led the most laps? This was a trivia question I posed earlier this year, but I don't actually recall whether this is the correct answer!
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Old 3 Nov 2005, 07:31 (Ref:1451083)   #15
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My view is the driver who scores the most points deserves the championship. Simple..

But, on topic, with the 'ifs' and 'buts', Pironi would have certainly walked away with the 1982 WDC. Look at the facts for a moment.. He missed the last 5 races, at the time of his accident he had 39 points, which, of course, he stayed at until the seasons end. WDC, Keke Rosberg, scored 41pts. Thus, Pironi would have only had to claim 5pts to win the title.

I also agree that Gilles would have definitely won at least one. Talents like that don't come around very often, and he will always be one of the most gifted drivers of all time. Shame that it was driver error that killed him, but I highly doubt whether that tarnished his reputation at all. I have always wondered when he would go till, and he was 32 when he died, so it would have been conceivable that he would have driven until, say 1986 or later... Which means he would have been around with Senna... And wouldn't have that been great!!

Onto Senna, a 3 times WDC, I don't doubt for a moment had he not had that crash he would have won at least one more WDC, possibly 2 or 3. The Williams was arguably the best car in 1994-1997, and if Hill could nearly snatch it in 94, and win it in 96, then I'm sure Senna would have been there or thereabouts, as he is a driver of a much, much higher calibre than Hill. I wouldn't have been inconceivable to see him retire in 1999, 2000, during the twilight of Alesi's career. Or even perhaps 1997 with his good friend Berger.

But as I said, all the former WDC's are more than deserving, and this is taking nothing away from them, purely hindsight..
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