2025 Rallying

[BertMk2]

With the conclusion of the 2024 WRC season thoughts turn to next year - who's driving where and for how many events?

Toyota
Rovanpera (full season)
Evans (full season)
Katstuta (full season)
Pajari (full season)
Ogier (part season)

Hyundai
Neuville (full season)
Tanak (full season)
Car 3 - Formeaux? / Sordo? / Mikkelsen? / Lappi?
Car 4 (not confirmed but discussed)

The fourth Hyundai hasn't been confirmed yet but looks likely based on comments by the team. Formeaux has been linked with the 3rd seat so looks likely. The 4th car if it does happen is likely to be a split drive - presumably Sordo/Lappi. Mikkelsen has been mentioned as staying but also there were comments in Japan about it being his last top level event so he could be out. I thought Solberg might have been a possibility but I haven't seen his name linked to a seat anywhere.

M-Sport
Car 1 - Munster?
Car 2 - ??

I've not really heard much about M-Sport for next season - if Formeaux does leave for Hyundai I'd expect them to try and retain Munster for some continuity. Not heard any other names linked with the team though.

[tbtstt]

Four full time cars from Hyundai would be great. Obviously another manufacturer would be best but, in the absence of that, strong numbers from the manufacturers we have is the next best thing.

Really hope that the reduction in cost (with the hybrid gone) might permit M-Sport to run a third car, but perhaps that is wishful thinking there: and of course they need the talent to drive the cars as well.

[BertMk2]

[QUOTE=tbtstt;4236512]Four full time cars from Hyundai would be great. Obviously another manufacturer would be best but, in the absence of that, strong numbers from the manufacturers we have is the next best thing. [QUOTE]

The fourth car looks like it might only be for some events - shame if that's accurate but better than no fourth car at all.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Really hope that the reduction in cost (with the hybrid gone) might permit M-Sport to run a third car, but perhaps that is wishful thinking there: and of course they need the talent to drive the cars as well.

M-Sport seem to only be talking about two cars - a bit of lunchtime googling suggests they'd like to keep Formeaux (assuming he doesn't go to Hyundai). The other drivers I found mentions of were Munster (as expected), Sesks (has driven the rally1 Puma already), Solberg and Rossel.

I haven't seen anything about any possible privateer entries - but with the hybrid cost/complexity removed could we see some extra Rally1 cars?

[flatlandsman]

You might get one or two, that Greek guy usually does a few events in a Puma still, and there might be one or two, but they will still cost a fortune to lease or buy with zero chance of a result, easier to have a top notch R5 and rally locally.

[ArnageWRC]

I'm not sure much will change - and the WRC will remain the weakest of the major motorsport series.

Lots of things need to change, but seem unlikely to do so.

[BertMk2]

Solberg moves to a Toyota in Rally2 for next season - so that rules him out of a drive at M-Sport.

https://www.wrc.com/a/news/w29039_So...rintsport-move

Also Iron Dames will field a full season crew in Rally2 with Sarah Rumeau and Julie Amblard stepping up from the French rally championships:

https://www.wrc.com/a/news/w29046_Ir...charge-in-WRC2

[AndyS]

So I see the 2027 regulations are out as well as a new points system for 2025. The points system seems better and a bit more understandable.

The new technical regulations for 2027 seem to be heavily focused on reducing costs. Common parts, more durable parts, 10 year regulation cycle, shared/reduced logistics costs, more use of local facilities, less team personnel on site and better connectivity to allow for off site technical backup from back at base.

On the face of it, sounds sensible. Cost cap on the car builds at less than half the cost of the current cars was another one. You'd like to think it would encourage more manufacturers and customer teams to join, but like most others I feel this is only half the job. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it's the promotion and visibility of the sport that also needs raising. We all know this, so I'm not going to repeat it again.

Going where there are established fan bases, making the cost of hosting an event affordable and reducing the amount of road miles getting between stages are also key for me. I'm all for more stage miles, but keep them in more manageable geographical areas and that will also help reduce costs.

As regards the technical regs, no doubt we'll have plenty slagging them off and predicting the end of the WRC, but personally, like most things, I'll reserve judgement until we actually see how it pans out in 27/28. Slower cars doesn't sound exciting, but those of us who remember the 80's, all thought this when Group B ended and was replaced by Group A. Initially, it was a bit of a come down, but as it progressed it developed into a fantastic era of Rallying.

For me, it's lets see!

[ArnageWRC]

To use an often quoted saying; "the proof of the pudding, will be in the eating..."

However, I just don't think there are the manufacturers out there who are interested in WRC. And certainly not when it's media/ promotion is poor.

I don't have an issue with cars which are a bit slower; the top drivers will look fast in anything, and if we get 10-15 top class cars all going at, then that's good enough for me.

[BertMk2]

There's been some criticism of the new regs from some of the current wrc drivers - they seem to be worried that there won't be a significant difference in performance between the new rally1 and rally2 cars. So on gravel events in particular running a rally2 car (later in the running order) will be beneficial as the rally1 cars will have swept the road - potentially resulting in rally2 cars posting faster times than rally1 cars.

My intial reponse to that would be "earn your money" The top drivers should still be able to make the difference.

I also see that Formeaux has been told he has parity with Tanak and Neuville within Hyundai. Let's see how that works out!

[ArnageWRC]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

There's been some criticism of the new regs from some of the current wrc drivers - they seem to be worried that there won't be a significant difference in performance between the new rally1 and rally2 cars. So on gravel events in particular running a rally2 car (later in the running order) will be beneficial as the rally1 cars will have swept the road - potentially resulting in rally2 cars posting faster times than rally1 cars.

My intial reponse to that would be "earn your money" The top drivers should still be able to make the difference.

Yeah, I think that's a good thing - bring it on. Reminds me a little of the F2 screamers on Tarmac in 1997-99......

I've always thought, that the second class of motorsport series should always be able to win/challenge in certain circumstances.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I also see that Formeaux has been told he has parity with Tanak and Neuville within Hyundai. Let's see how that works out!

Yeah, be interesting to see how that goes. If he is on the same pace as them from the outset then perhaps it is a possibility, but I can't see him being anything other than a supporting act to the other two for this year? (Perhaps that is unfair though)

[BertMk2]

M-Sport sign Josh McErlean for their second seat - didn't see that one coming!

https://www.wrc.com/a/news/w29076_Do...rt-Ford-in-WRC

So that looks like the full Rally1 lineup (unless Hyundai do go for a 4th car). M-Sport really look like they'll be struggling for results - Munster was some way off Formeaux and McErlean has no experience in the car so you'd imagine will take time to get up to speed. Add in the extra Toyota (and possibly Hyundai) and you can't see M-Sport troubling the podium all season.

In WRC2 Citroen has signed up Yohan and Léo Rossel to run full seasons.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

So that looks like the full Rally1 lineup (unless Hyundai do go for a 4th car). M-Sport really look like they'll be struggling for results - Munster was some way off Formeaux and McErlean has no experience in the car so you'd imagine will take time to get up to speed. Add in the extra Toyota (and possibly Hyundai) and you can't see M-Sport troubling the podium all season.

I'd really like to see M-Sport claiming podiums again next season but, exactly as you have said, I can't see the proposed driver line up achieving that in 2025.

McErlean is a bit of an unknown for me; I have heard his name and I know he has had some success in WRC2, but that is about it. Seems like it is going to be a very steep learning curve for him. If 2025 can be a productive learning season for him in a Rally1 car than perhaps he could be more of a challenger in 2026?

Very interested to see if the removal of hybrid ends up favouring any one of the teams (and/or if one of the teams adapts the car better to ICE only).

I think 2025 is going to be a Toyota year in Rally1 and Rally2, but perhaps I am jumping the gun a bit with my prediction there.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I'd really like to see M-Sport claiming podiums again next season but, exactly as you have said, I can't see the proposed driver line up achieving that in 2025.

McErlean is a bit of an unknown for me; I have heard his name and I know he has had some success in WRC2, but that is about it. Seems like it is going to be a very steep learning curve for him. If 2025 can be a productive learning season for him in a Rally1 car than perhaps he could be more of a challenger in 2026?

The problem M-Sport have is retaining the drivers for that second (or subsequent campaign). It seems to be a recurring theme that drivers get a chance with M-Sport then move on to one of the other teams after gaining experience. I suppose without manufacturer backing this is the only way M-Sport can carry on.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Very interested to see if the removal of hybrid ends up favouring any one of the teams (and/or if one of the teams adapts the car better to ICE only).

Agreed - maybe it'll give us a clue as to who actually had the hybrid working best? As well as the aero changes (looks like less holes in bodywork) I guess weight distribution will be a big area of change as well. Could see updates throughout the season as people adjust to the changes.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I think 2025 is going to be a Toyota year in Rally1 and Rally2, but perhaps I am jumping the gun a bit with my prediction there.

I think Rovanpera will take the drivers title - but the manufacturers will be close I think, if you assume that Rovanpera and Evans equate to Neuville and Tanak then it comes down to who can bank the most points from Katsuta & Pajari vs Formeaux. Do we put Ogier down as a nailed on win in Monte Carlo?

WRC2 looks like it'll be close as well - the Toyota looks good but Skoda always have a decent car and the Citroen have a decent lineup. Certainly appears to be wide open - we could easily see wins from 5 manufacturers in WRC2. I suspect we'll see a lot of entries that don't do a full season - so that could shake up the final standings if the part timers take big points off the full season entries (not a complaint).

[BertMk2]

A few shots from the Brands Hatch rally last weekend. A strong entry with the most R5/Rally 2 cars I've seen at a single venue event, Michael Igoe won the event and looked to have the car 100% dialled in, very impressive. The rest of the entry was a good mix of cars - nice to see a couple of Imprezas, they seem to have dropped out of favour over the last few years. Also interesting to see the Opel Adam being used by the Constantine brothers - graduates of Junior Rallycross. The other rallycrosser (Steve Hill) didn't have such a good day with the Evo 6 breaking on the first stage.

Hope those marshalling have thawed out now - that was a cold day to be standing out there. Good to see the time honoured approach to dealing with a broken car - look under the bonnet for a bit and prod stuff in the hope that it fires back up.

Different stage layouts this year as the rally school wasn't an option (at MSVs request) so all of the competitive mileage was within the confines of the circuit (including pitlane). Some of the changes worked, some not so much for me - I think the removal of some of the chicanes meant that it was too quick, just a foot to the floor and go kind of event. The chicanes mean that you can make a lot of time on the brakes and reward the brave, certainly there were some cars running out of puff as the gearing was too short for what was effectively a sprint. Maybe the chicanes could have been there for some of the stages? I liked the look of the section that ran from the cooper straight back up into the pit lane (the old rallycross route) - that looked like it would have been fun. Hopefully next year the team have more options and get use of the rally school back. Good day to start the season though, well done all.

[justracing]

Thanks for the report Bert, you're a braver man than me, I'm afraid the cold weather put me off. I really don't understand the logic in modifying the stage layouts as they have, omitting the rally section is surely a mistake and I know there were a number of objections to the fast layouts.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by justracing

Thanks for the report Bert, you're a braver man than me, I'm afraid the cold weather put me off.

It was certainly chilly but it was only my fingers that really felt the cold (I couldn't use my camera with a glove on my right hand). It did help that I was wandering around a lot - not an option for some of the marshals, I hope they had a good supply of hot drinks! There were certainly some marshals getting plenty of exercise putting course markers back in place on a regular basis!

Originally Posted by justracing

I really don't understand the logic in modifying the stage layouts as they have, omitting the rally section is surely a mistake and I know there were a number of objections to the fast layouts.

The club were limited by MSV as to what they could do - there's a lot of work been going on at Brands and the club didn't have the option of using the rally school for this years event. Some of the access roads that the club wanted to use were also off limits so they didn't have as many options available as they'd have liked.

I thought some of the changes worked (and could be incorporated into stages using the outer paddock / rally school) but the higher speeds allowed by the removal of chicanes I think were not so good. Looking at total times for the event the winner was around 30 minutes - compared to over 40 minutes last year. So a significant reduction in "fun time".

Hopefully for next year the club have more of the venue available to be used - changing the stages was something that competitors had asked for (on the basis that they were broadly the same very year) and given the restrictions placed on them the club didn't have many options. Like I say - some of the changes were good (entering the pit lane off the cooper straight, more use of Clearways), some not so good (removing chicanes to increase speeds).

[justracing]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The club were limited by MSV as to what they could do - there's a lot of work been going on at Brands and the club didn't have the option of using the rally school for this years event. Some of the access roads that the club wanted to use were also off limits so they didn't have as many options available as they'd have liked.

A huge amount of timber, mainly ash die back victims and other semi fallen trees have been cleared over the winter For those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adPUB_XaMME&t=1s

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

A few shots from the Brands Hatch rally last weekend.

Nice pictures! Not a stage shot (I don't think?), but I really like that picture of the C3 in the trees. .

Originally Posted by BertMk2

A strong entry with the most R5/Rally 2 cars I've seen at a single venue event, Michael Igoe won the event and looked to have the car 100% dialled in, very impressive.

I couldn't remember how many R5/Rally2 were there last year, but I was sure there were more this year. I really like the latter Fiestas and the Polos, so good to see several of those out (especially the cars in plain white)

Agreed on Michael Igoe; very consistent all event, took a few seconds on each stage and gradually stretched his lead throughout the day. Great drive from Barry Morris in the Darrian as well.

Interesting mix in the field; seemed to be less Escorts than previous years? Alas I didn't get there until the start of SS3, so I completed missed Steve Hill. As you say, nice to see Impreza and Evos out there.

I thought John Yates Porsche looked and sounded lovely. Alasdair Stables Chevette has been a favourite of mine in previous events, but car of the day this time was unquestionably Chris West Peugeot 306 Maxi.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Different stage layouts this year as the rally school wasn't an option (at MSVs request) so all of the competitive mileage was within the confines of the circuit (including pitlane). Some of the changes worked, some not so much for me - I think the removal of some of the chicanes meant that it was too quick, just a foot to the floor and go kind of event.

I saw the organisers getting some grief on Facebook about the use (or rather lack of use) of the rally stage. I have personally found viewing there a bit dull, as even the 4WD cars seemed to crawl through that section and, when it was really cold/slippy, some of the 2WD cars were almost down to walking pace. The outer paddock area (leading to the rally stage) did have a bit of a jump though which was quite cool to watch.

Agreed about the lack of chicanes. As you say they haven't got to be there for every stage, but a couple to break up the longer straights might have made things more interesting and added a bit more variety.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I liked the look of the section that ran from the cooper straight back up into the pit lane (the old rallycross route) - that looked like it would have been fun.

Some of the more of the confident drivers were carrying a lot of speed through there... others looked very tentative!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Nice pictures! Not a stage shot (I don't think?), but I really like that picture of the C3 in the trees. .

You're right - not a stage shot, that's as the cars came up from the rally school access road from the service area. Not a competitive section but allows for something different in terms of photos.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I couldn't remember how many R5/Rally2 were there last year, but I was sure there were more this year. I really like the latter Fiestas and the Polos, so good to see several of those out (especially the cars in plain white)

Agreed on Michael Igoe; very consistent all event, took a few seconds on each stage and gradually stretched his lead throughout the day. Great drive from Barry Morris in the Darrian as well.

Interesting mix in the field; seemed to be less Escorts than previous years? Alas I didn't get there until the start of SS3, so I completed missed Steve Hill. As you say, nice to see Impreza and Evos out there.

I thought John Yates Porsche looked and sounded lovely. Alasdair Stables Chevette has been a favourite of mine in previous events, but car of the day this time was unquestionably Chris West Peugeot 306 Maxi.

As you say there were more R5/Rally 2 and less Escorts - seemed to be quite a few of the regular crews missing. The Porsche was an absolute screamer wasn't it?

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I saw the organisers getting some grief on Facebook about the use (or rather lack of use) of the rally stage. I have personally found viewing there a bit dull, as even the 4WD cars seemed to crawl through that section and, when it was really cold/slippy, some of the 2WD cars were almost down to walking pace. The outer paddock area (leading to the rally stage) did have a bit of a jump though which was quite cool to watch.

Agreed about the lack of chicanes. As you say they haven't got to be there for every stage, but a couple to break up the longer straights might have made things more interesting and added a bit more variety.

From my perspective the rally school always felt very slow and a bit frustrating, there's no grip whatsoever so you really can't get on the throttle at all, it's just a case of trying to get around without losing too much time. Certainly starting there you get a sense of relief once you get into the outer paddock and can nail the throttle. I quite like the section in the outer paddock - some good fast bits, the jump is fun and you can make time through the sharper corners if you get them right. It does also give you the extra distance/variety on a stage that was lost to some extent this year. I saw the organisers getting hammered but I think that's not really fair given the circumstances (I guess that's normal now though, hopefully there is some constructive stuff amongst the rage).

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As you say there were more R5/Rally 2 and less Escorts - seemed to be quite a few of the regular crews missing. The Porsche was an absolute screamer wasn't it?

Yes: you heard it coming before you saw it!

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I saw the organisers getting hammered but I think that's not really fair given the circumstances (I guess that's normal now though, hopefully there is some constructive stuff amongst the rage).

Ultimately it is always going to be a circuit rally (which is why some of the comments "it isn't a proper rally without the rally stage" made me laugh).

I definitely thought there were some positives with the "new" layouts this year, so if they can incorporate those and get free rein of the circuit again next year then everyone is happy.

Originally Posted by justracing

A huge amount of timber, mainly ash die back victims and other semi fallen trees have been cleared over the winter

Saw there was a lot of trees gone and timber to be cleared around the outside of Druids.

Took a few pictures at Druids of my favourite cars during SS4 and SS5...













...couldn't feel my fingers at that point, so the camera went back in my bag and my hands went in my pockets for the rest of the day!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I definitely thought there were some positives with the "new" layouts this year, so if they can incorporate those and get free rein of the circuit again next year then everyone is happy.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

...couldn't feel my fingers at that point, so the camera went back in my bag and my hands went in my pockets for the rest of the day!

A tad chilly wasn't it? That Chevette was indecently quick - and nice to see an alternative to the Mk2 Escort. Any idea what engine it's running?

[ArnageWRC]

Rallye Monte-Carlo about to start........

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by ArnageWRC

Rallye Monte-Carlo about to start........

Looks like the conditions are pretty mixed for this year - I saw quite a few clips from shakedown where there was a mixture of wet tarmac, snow and ice so hoepfully that remains for the whole event.

Evans currently leading but it's very close between the top 7 at the moment - which has to be a good sign. I saw Ogier had dropped time last night with a half spin - without that he's probably be ahead, still looks like he's ultimately the man to beat in Monte Carlo?

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Evans currently leading but it's very close between the top 7 at the moment - which has to be a good sign. I saw Ogier had dropped time last night with a half spin - without that he's probably be ahead, still looks like he's ultimately the man to beat in Monte Carlo?

Kalle seems to be quicker this morning, but not quite as near the sharp end as I expected.

Neuville has got his title defense off about as well as I expected; car off the road in SS6 this morning. Moment for Tanak as well and he has also dropped time (not as much though).

Two very impressive times from Munster this morning, second on SS4 and SS6. Looks like they got the tyre choice right and he has made the most of it.

First Hyundai stage win of the year goes to Fourmaux. Exactly what he needs if he doesn't want to be relegated to the wingman role.