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Old 31 Jan 2019, 12:23 (Ref:3880877)   #3376
Casper
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As to Mercedes opposition, maybe I think Mercedes realizes that they may eventually have to outright buy a secondary team if things continue down this path. Buying to ensure they can pull the strings correctly and are trying to avoid having to do that. Probably as their budget is large enough as it is, let alone having another large mouth to feed.



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I wonder how political it will all get? It is obvious that Ferrari have taken certain measures to strengthen their bargaining position by strengthening their ties with Sauber when they embedded an engineer and seconded KR to the the Team. Haas are also very strongly allied to the Ferrari cause but that goes back to the hard headed business contra deal that got them into F1 in the first place and was never going to be anything different. Am I the only one who questions why KR went to Sauber instead of LeClerc doing another year there? I think it is all tied up with exerting enough influence to ensure Ferrari get their own way.
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Old 2 Feb 2019, 03:57 (Ref:3881264)   #3377
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I wonder how political it will all get? It is obvious that Ferrari have taken certain measures to strengthen their bargaining position by strengthening their ties with Sauber when they embedded an engineer and seconded KR to the the Team. Haas are also very strongly allied to the Ferrari cause but that goes back to the hard headed business contra deal that got them into F1 in the first place and was never going to be anything different. Am I the only one who questions why KR went to Sauber instead of LeClerc doing another year there? I think it is all tied up with exerting enough influence to ensure Ferrari get their own way.
The recent official name change has only reinforced my thought on Ferrari, they are determined to ensure their political power and influence gets them what they want. It leaves MB out in the cold as RB has two teams within its circle of control.
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Old 2 Feb 2019, 07:33 (Ref:3881278)   #3378
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Then surely Stroll F1 is ripe for the picking as a Junior team? Given Williams has reportedly snubbed the idea?

Unless Mercedes aren't interested in the politics and just carry on winning.

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Old 2 Feb 2019, 11:17 (Ref:3881311)   #3379
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Stroll is good enough for a seat with a top team. I think his motivation will be up now he's in a better car

Of course Merc care about winning, that's why they are here

Let's see what happens
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Old 2 Feb 2019, 13:08 (Ref:3881330)   #3380
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The recent official name change has only reinforced my thought on Ferrari, they are determined to ensure their political power and influence gets them what they want. It leaves MB out in the cold as RB has two teams within its circle of control.
Not really, it just means MB should get a move along to purchase their second team. Second teams is a great model in F1, be it Honda and Super Aguri, Red Bull and Toro Rosso, or Ferrari and Alfa Romeo. Force India was available yet MB didn't act to buy it, which was unwise.
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Old 2 Feb 2019, 13:09 (Ref:3881331)   #3381
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I think he could shine. He’ll do well and might get a few results with a bit of luck. But Mercedes will still be at the top
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Old 2 Feb 2019, 22:05 (Ref:3881487)   #3382
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I wonder how political it will all get? It is obvious that Ferrari have taken certain measures to strengthen their bargaining position by strengthening their ties with Sauber when they embedded an engineer and seconded KR to the the Team. Haas are also very strongly allied to the Ferrari cause but that goes back to the hard headed business contra deal that got them into F1 in the first place and was never going to be anything different. Am I the only one who questions why KR went to Sauber instead of LeClerc doing another year there? I think it is all tied up with exerting enough influence to ensure Ferrari get their own way.
Post #872 of the Driver 2018 Silly Season Thread

Originally Posted by Mike Harte
wnut, your theory is great, but it has no real bearing on how F1 actually works.

Firstly, the most important "voting" takes place in whatever the group is now called, and only six teams have a vote, whilst the FIA and FOM have 6 votes apiece, meaning that the FIA and FOM can outvote the teams if they want to stop ideas being forwarded to the next stage.

At that 2nd stage, a vote includes all the teams and requires unanimity amongst the teams if a proposal is to be introduced within a certain period. If the proposal is to be introduced outside of that restricted time sphere, then, if I am correct, there is no requirement for a vote and the FIA/FOM can impose it on the teams.

In the case of changes mandated for safety reasons, the FIA/FOM can again impose the change within the time constraint.

However, having said all that, there is probably no doubt that certain teams do align themselves concerning future regulations at the early stages of prospective changes.

All true.

Liberty has however made noises about increased representations from the teams, and then there is the process kicked off by Sauber and FI in the EU mentioned by Chillibowl.

I think that the powers that be, Merc and Ferrari, are stacking the decks to make sure that any democracy that breaks out goes in their favour.

Hopefully Liberty and the FIA will stick together and ignore the lot of them.

When did a manufacturer ever do anything to a Motorsport category other than wreck it, then walk away?
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Old 2 Feb 2019, 22:08 (Ref:3881488)   #3383
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Then surely Stroll F1 is ripe for the picking as a Junior team? Given Williams has reportedly snubbed the idea?

Unless Mercedes aren't interested in the politics and just carry on winning.

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If Mercedes looks after Stroll they would be expected to vote in Mercedes interest to keep the engine deal?
Also Stroll is spending a lot of money to make sure that the Mercedes PU finishes up near the front of the field in his car, so it would be better for Mercedes to steal a Ferrari customer if they are going to spend money on a second team, looks unlikely. Williams or McLaren?

Voting Groups

RBR & STR

Mercedes, FI, Williams

Ferrari, Alfa (Sauber), Haas

Renault, McLaren

Last edited by wnut; 2 Feb 2019 at 22:18.
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Old 3 Feb 2019, 10:22 (Ref:3881638)   #3384
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I doubt that Mercedes have any interest in Stroll. Stroll just wants a car he can do well in. We’ll see what other teams Merc supply, but I expect Ferrari to keep supplying teams. I highly doubt McLaren would use Merc engines again and Williams, who knows where they will be come the end of the year?

I think the voting is a bit unfair though, teams should vote independently
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Old 4 Feb 2019, 00:49 (Ref:3881788)   #3385
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I doubt that Mercedes have any interest in Stroll. Stroll just wants a car he can do well in.
Agreed. Stroll senior is looking at FI as his sons toy/platform. Letting MB in on the act will mean losing control and moving the teams focus away from Stroll. The whole F1 exercise is pocket money to Stroll... he doesnt need or want the potential problems of partners in the team. My opinion / thoughts.
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Old 4 Feb 2019, 06:47 (Ref:3881830)   #3386
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If Mercedes looks after FI (Stroll Snr.) they would be expected to vote in Mercedes interest to keep the engine deal?

In other words Merc don't need to spend money on FI to get the best possible performance from them, the money could be better spent controlling another team to increase Mercedes' voting block, FI will vote the Mercedes way.

These votes should be by secret ballot to ensure dissenting teams do not face manufacturers' wrath.
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Old 4 Feb 2019, 17:30 (Ref:3881934)   #3387
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...and then there is the process kicked off by Sauber and FI in the EU mentioned by Chillibowl...
i cant remember where and in what context that i brought that up...hopefully the point i will make next is in keeping with what i said earlier or maybe not lol.

but about the concern that these 'slave' teams will just help the big teams via voting blocks...i suppose i am less concerned.

as you highlighted wnut, it was Sauber (who have arguably been a 'slave' team for the longest) and Force India (who have arguably done the most/most successful of the 'slave' teams) who have spoke out the loudest against the current order/masters.

alternatively, if one looks at what has happened over the years (specifically with issues surrounding the current engine regs) its collusion between Merc and Renault for example, which is of much bigger concern than collusion between Ferrari and Haas could ever hope to be.

at the end of the day, two engine manus working together have more control (and perhaps rightly so) then one engine manu and their 'slave' team.

anyways, this is F1 and indeed it is all smoke and mirrors so who really knows whats going on.
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Old 4 Feb 2019, 19:05 (Ref:3881952)   #3388
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I believe that some while ago that one of those two teams withdrew their complaint to the EU Commissioners. As I say, it was some time ago, and I cannot now remember whether the complaint is still under investigation or not.
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Old 4 Feb 2019, 22:33 (Ref:3881978)   #3389
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alternatively, if one looks at what has happened over the years (specifically with issues surrounding the current engine regs) its collusion between Merc and Renault for example, which is of much bigger concern than collusion between Ferrari and Haas could ever hope to be.

at the end of the day, two engine manus working together have more control (and perhaps rightly so) then one engine manu and their 'slave' team.
I know how the current formula came about has been talked to death. The entire "global racing engine", 4 vs 6 cylinder, turbo vs NA, etc.

I can't see it being something like Mercedes and Renault worked together to what... hoodwink Ferrari? I don't see it. It is nearly impossible for each to come up with completely different proposals. There was going to be some level of agreement and no doubt alliances when negotiating specific parts of the spec.

I just don't see any "collusion". Lets say there was commonality in what each manufacture wanted. Clearly they would have only advocated for things they felt they would excel at, plus try to mitigate things they might feel are weaknesses. If there was true collusion between a Mercedes and Renault, then they would have negotiated for X, Y and Z and then actively collaborated (traded data) on X, Y and Z. In reality they all walked away with a specification and built their respective solutions in secret with the goal to crushing each other. Clearly there can only be one winner and as we all know... Mercedes got it right in a big way.

Overall, I don't see how the prior engine regulation negotiations are any type of indicator as to the issue with respect to voting blocks created by "technology partners" (which is a nice euphemism for the second tier slave teams).

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These votes should be by secret ballot to ensure dissenting teams do not face manufacturers' wrath.
My first thought was the same, but given the small number of voters, it's likely nearly impossible to hide your position. Small teams probably would still find it risky to vote independently and contrary to the directives provided to them by the manufactures. You don't want to vote in opposition, have your effort fail and potentially expose your treachery at worst, or raise suspicion at best. Vote counts could be telling. Maybe if they could hide the actual vote results and put it down as pass/fail. But that would create it's level of suspicion and lack of trust in any voting process.

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Old 8 Mar 2019, 09:53 (Ref:3889114)   #3390
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...-2019/4348938/

Fastest lap of top 10 finishes will get a bonus point???

I seem to remember this was always a rule that was in the top 10 rules that used to be in F1. Just checking but it's not April 1st?
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