Toro Rosso

[MarkG]

Do Torro Rosso really deserve to be considered as a viable team and constructor attempting to win races? Do they deserve a place on the grid?

They are only there to give Red Bull a driver development platform, knowledge of Ferrari engines and ancilliaries, take points off Red Bull competitors if possible, and impede Red Bull competitors if made not too obvious. Even if a Torro Rosso driver doesn't make it to the "first" team, they will have served a purpose for Red Bull at times.

To me it's a shame that Minardi weren't bought by an independant entity that had racing in it's DNA.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by MarkG

Do Torro Rosso really deserve to be considered as a viable team and constructor attempting to win races? Do they deserve a place on the grid?

They are only there to give Red Bull a driver development platform, knowledge of Ferrari engines and ancilliaries, take points off Red Bull competitors if possible, and impede Red Bull competitors if made not too obvious. Even if a Torro Rosso driver doesn't make it to the "first" team, they will have served a purpose for Red Bull at times.

To me it's a shame that Minardi weren't bought by an independant entity that had racing in it's DNA.

But if Red Bull hadn't bought Minardi amybe no-one else would have done either, meaning one less (reasonable) quality team on the grid...

[bella]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

But if Red Bull hadn't bought Minardi amybe no-one else would have done either, meaning one less (reasonable) quality team on the grid...

that's a very good and important point - they are a quality team with reasonably steady funding. you can't underestimate the importance of that versus what they were and what they would have become otherwise too.

they do some interesting stuff with the design of their cars too, wherever it comes from.

[Greem]

Do we extend the same logic to any team which has a technical partnership or engine supply from another team? Force India, for example - links to McLaren and now also to Ferrari. My, now there's a tasty conspiracy theory.

Or, perhaps, there isn't - and I don't believe it applies to Toro Rosso either. Sure, there will be occasions where behind-the-scenes conversations take place between teams to make sure that drivers get out of the way a little more quickly than they might otherwise, but that's been the case since the 1950s.

I don't buy the theory, myself. But then maybe I'm being naive, maybe there really are dark undercurrents to everything in F1.

[Bononi]

They fill two places, that's important.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Greem

Do we extend the same logic to any team which has a technical partnership or engine supply from another team? Force India, for example - links to McLaren and now also to Ferrari. My, now there's a tasty conspiracy theory.

Or, perhaps, there isn't - and I don't believe it applies to Toro Rosso either. Sure, there will be occasions where behind-the-scenes conversations take place between teams to make sure that drivers get out of the way a little more quickly than they might otherwise, but that's been the case since the 1950s.

I don't buy the theory, myself. But then maybe I'm being naive, maybe there really are dark undercurrents to everything in F1.

I'm not suggesting any conspiracy. It's quite obvious to me why TR are there.

[BSchneiderFan]

I have no problem with Red Bull funding a junior team in F1. If Ferrari or McLaren or Mercedes wanted to do so, and could make them competitive, the more the merrier.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I have no problem with Red Bull funding a junior team in F1. If Ferrari or McLaren or Mercedes wanted to do so, and could make them competitive, the more the merrier.

Funnily enough, I can't really disagree with you, sorry.
If those teams had similar billions, I'm sure they'd do the same thing.

[Bononi]

They don't do it because it's not profitable or give them any advantage, they would prefer run 3 cars instead.

[Born Racer]

[devil'sadvocate]If team orders are allowed, I don't see anything wrong with the odd inter-team ones.[/devil'sadvocate]

I don't think it's fair to single Toro Rosso out here.

[Paradise City]

Haven't been Red Bull trying to sell that team but without much success? Toro Rosso seem to be more of a burden than an asset.

It's an extravagant spend for minor returns. Red Bull would be just as well swooping for a promising driver in a midfield team than run their own junior squad in F1.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

[devil'sadvocate]If team orders are allowed, I don't see anything wrong with the odd inter-team ones.[/devil'sadvocate]

I don't think it's fair to single Toro Rosso out here.

True, it's an extension of team orders I suppose, and I only "single out" Torro Rosso because this is the only team it applies to isn't it?
I just wonder if the top 4 teams all did it, we'd then have 8 first team cars on the grid and 8 second team cars. Would that be acceptable too?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by MarkG

I'm not suggesting any conspiracy. It's quite obvious to me why TR are there.

Voting rights.

Either that or Flavio Briatore owned more than one team because he's such a motorsport enthusiast.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Haven't been Red Bull trying to sell that team but without much success? Toro Rosso seem to be more of a burden than an asset.

It's an extravagant spend for minor returns. Red Bull would be just as well swooping for a promising driver in a midfield team than run their own junior squad in F1.

That's the situation now though, it's the bed they made and they have to sleep in it. I suppose only Red Bull can judge the worth of it.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Voting rights.

Either that or Flavio Briatore owned more than one team because he's such a motorsport enthusiast.

The best way to do that is the way Ferrari formed a relationship with Sauber. In exchange for their technical exchanges and the engines, Sauber began to make bizarre voting decisions in favour of Ferrari. Mind you, I don't think Merc has the same leverage over McLaren or Force India as the engines just aren't being developed much anymore.

I think Dietrich bought that team because he thought he could send his old Red Bull chassis to the second squad on the sly. So he could have a whole team without having to commision a new chassis,. A very tasty commercial deal. But the FIA went back on the F1 2nd hand car trade because it would undermine constructors like Williams and Dietrich was left carrying the Toro Rosso can.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

But the FIA went back on the F1 2nd hand car trade because it would undermine constructors like Williams ........

I actually like the idea of selling on last years' car to a new team, ironically, just like Williams developed, but I know I'm in a minority of one on that.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by MarkG

I actually like the idea of selling on last years' car to a new team, ironically, just like Williams developed, but I know I'm in a minority of one on that.

I love the idea too. But in practice where is the incentive for the likes of Williams to construct whilst mickey mouse Toro Rosso on a shoe string runs rings around Williams with a Red Bull hand-me down?

You'd wind up with Williams hunting for a Ferrari chassis or something or else them quitting the sport.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I love the idea too. But in practice where is the incentive for the likes of Williams to construct whilst mickey mouse Toro Rosso on a shoe string runs rings around Williams with a Red Bull hand-me down?

You'd wind up with Williams hunting for a Ferrari chassis or something or else them quitting the sport.

I agree it wouldn't work, and even if we forumers came up with a way it would work without argument, it would not be introduced anyway.
But just for fun.. maybe only allow a one-time purchase up to two cars, then you're on your own? Maybe a team like Williams could buy a car also and use it to get ideas/copy? They're not exactly setting the world alight with their own cars.. which is a shame because it's a team I really like.

[aridshelter]

Originally Posted by MarkG

I agree it wouldn't work, and even if we forumers came up with a way it would work without argument, it would not be introduced anyway.
But just for fun.. maybe only allow a one-time purchase up to two cars, then you're on your own? Maybe a team like Williams could buy a car also and use it to get ideas/copy? They're not exactly setting the world alight with their own cars.. which is a shame because it's a team I really like.

I'd be a fan of allowing you to buy and sell chassis, but to race, you must own the intellectual property of the car you run (specifically, you can build more without permission/assistance from the selling team, you can use any design elements on it as part of any new designs you make, and you are free to re-sell the designs on to anyone you choose).

This would allow the use of customer cars to act as a base to build their first self designed car (or get new ideas), however because of the sell on rule - selling teams would be reluctant to let their current secrets go, so available chassis would be a few years old and (shouldn't) be able to outperform established midfield runners out of the box...

[Paradise City]

Any team that wants a hand-me-down the FIA can impose an additional financial levy upon the hand-me-down team so Williams doesn't feel dumb in going through the painful and expensive process of constructing a car. Also the hand-me-down team shouldn't expect to be admitted to the constructors championship and all the big money that comes with it.

The politics of it is tough though. Williams might construct an objectively lousy car by any measure but if they are beaten by a competent hand-me down; they'd start a political controversy. That said, I think a good governing body needs to be able weather political storms for the good of the sport rather than duck the politics in order to live the easy-life. The politics is much tougher in the internet age of course.

[GTRMagic]

How much worse may it be in 2014 if STR runs a Renault engine and RBT transmission and drivetrain?

[HDTVKSS]

For me, the issue is more what is the purpose of the team these days? we have gone though a fair few drivers now, with only SV making the grade into the big boys. the 2 current TR drivers are as good as any they have had, yet the hot rumor is that that they will be passed over in favor of KR. if that happens, then really what is the purpose besides perhaps trialing beta parts on?

To make the idea work, there has to be a frequent change in the top team. let the 2 drivers in TR fight it out for a spot in the top team and let the top team know that if you lose out to your team mate over say 2 seasons you can either a) leave or b) enjoy a season or 2 with the junior squad. would also give a good yardstick for the newer guys against those with more experience.

Otherwise i just don't see a point to the whole shebang other than being HM's play thing where he can wield his might and power, while suggesting that no one is good enough because they haven't won a race in a 2nd hand Red Bull....

[GTRMagic]

Is STR still 100% owned by the 'Red Bull group'... or has the private bank consortium on the car taken a shareholding?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is STR still 100% owned by the 'Red Bull group'... or has the private bank consortium on the car taken a shareholding?

Aabar/Falcon, a Dubai banking crowd, owns a minimum of 40% from just last year. They recently withdrew their stake in Merc and have rumoured to up their share of STR to circa 60%.

[321Go]

STR is to make a major announcement at the Monaco GP.