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Old 29 May 2013, 07:44 (Ref:3254859)   #1
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crash-a-lot-drivers

I was out of the country last week so finally got watch the full Monaco GP yesterday.

I saw Romain Grosjean hit many things, and rightly so get a lot of flack from commentators. It also makes sense now based on some of the F1 communities complaining asking for him to have another ban/punishment.


It does look like Romain is basically just not safe to drive an F1 car at this present time so many incidents last year and looks like it's happening again, although to a lesser extent.

two questions really.

Why does Romain seem to get such a hard time for these crashes compared to Sato/Kobayashi who both (lesser Kobayashi) seemed to cause a lot of incidents/wreckless driving.


Secondly - how to combat this, yes there will always be accidents/incidents, but certain drivers throughout the seasons have been notorious for crashing and causing incidents, but Romain as far as I can recall is the first one to receive a ban for it or receive such harsh comments for a long time.

I have no desire to make excuses for Romain, as having all the speed in the world or bullish driving is useless if you cause accidents on a regular basis
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Old 29 May 2013, 08:11 (Ref:3254867)   #2
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i have a counter-question to your one.

do you think that there are far fewer "visible" crashes now thanks to the tarmac run-offs? and as such are we not even noticing guys who have a serious problem recognising the track limits?

i think now that the opportunities for er, crossing the limits in all senses of the words have been increased (ie there's just no incentive *not* to) we're only judging the guys who park it on someone elses car. that's the only way we really see them doing something that would have resulted in a crash 10-20 years ago.
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Old 29 May 2013, 08:42 (Ref:3254887)   #3
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darcym makes a good point and asks fair questions. I can't remember so much here, but the other site I go on, they went nuts over Grosjean last year, whereas I didn't think he was even the worst crasher I had seen.

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Originally Posted by darcym View Post
two questions really.

Why does Romain seem to get such a hard time for these crashes compared to Sato/Kobayashi who both (lesser Kobayashi) seemed to cause a lot of incidents/wreckless driving.
People are very sensitive nowdays? People like complaining?


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Secondly - how to combat this,
The nature of the race has to change. People seem to accept that racing is about being flat out all the way. It isn't. It's a long drawn out drag, like a time trial. If you take out the thinking that qualifying intensity is needed for the whole race, you take out the desperation. You allow competitors the opportunity to be "sensible" when attempting to overtake or defend.


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yes there will always be accidents/incidents, but certain drivers throughout the seasons have been notorious for crashing and causing incidents, but Romain as far as I can recall is the first one to receive a ban for it or receive such harsh comments for a long time.
Do you remember Hakkinen missing the 94 Hungarian GP for cause the mess at the start of the German GP?
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Old 29 May 2013, 09:08 (Ref:3254901)   #4
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i have a counter-question to your one.

do you think that there are far fewer "visible" crashes now thanks to the tarmac run-offs? and as such are we not even noticing guys who have a serious problem recognising the track limits?

i think now that the opportunities for er, crossing the limits in all senses of the words have been increased (ie there's just no incentive *not* to) we're only judging the guys who park it on someone elses car. that's the only way we really see them doing something that would have resulted in a crash 10-20 years ago.

superb counter question, and "yes" the lack of a real accident and ability to run off the circuit, run others off the circuit represent more virtual crashes that "should" have happened. So there is probably more bad/dangerous driving than previous decades, but we don't shout about it as we don't see it as a much as there is no accident and few DNF's.

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Do you remember Hakkinen missing the 94 Hungarian GP for cause the mess at the start of the German GP?
the only one I could think of was Irvine in 94 for the accident with Vestappen and Brundle, who if you watch it doesn't actually appear to be dangerous driving, but that's moving a bit out of scope of the discussion I was trying to have.
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Old 29 May 2013, 11:07 (Ref:3254944)   #5
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Who cares about Perez, Grosjean etc being too wreckless. It makes the sport more exciting to watch! As long as no one is hurt, of course.

Crashes in other formula like touring cars and dirt racing/derbys make it more exciting.

That crash at the start of the gp2 race 1 was awesome!
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Old 29 May 2013, 12:06 (Ref:3254969)   #6
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Old 29 May 2013, 16:04 (Ref:3255041)   #7
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sorry a crash doesn't make a race exiting, close racing with both cars fighting hard for position makes it exciting.

A crash is a disappointment
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Old 29 May 2013, 16:05 (Ref:3255042)   #8
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I'm not sure about this characterisation of Kobayashi as a crasher.
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Old 29 May 2013, 16:11 (Ref:3255045)   #9
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Crashing doesn't make racing more exciting, actually crashes are anti-racing.
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Old 29 May 2013, 16:35 (Ref:3255052)   #10
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Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Who cares about Perez, Grosjean etc being too wreckless. It makes the sport more exciting to watch! As long as no one is hurt, of course.

Crashes in other formula like touring cars and dirt racing/derbys make it more exciting.

That crash at the start of the gp2 race 1 was awesome!
Add me to the list of those who disagree. Crashes, apart from being dangerous and damaging the machinery, take cars off the track reducing the amount of competition all around the track during a race, and cause safety car periods or even red flags, which are not exciting.
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Old 29 May 2013, 17:44 (Ref:3255083)   #11
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Agreed. The whole point of the exercise is to race, not play bumper cars.
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Old 29 May 2013, 17:45 (Ref:3255084)   #12
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Who cares about Perez, Grosjean etc being too wreckless. It makes the sport more exciting to watch!
I thought they were not wreckless enough? Wreckful, one might say.
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Old 29 May 2013, 18:42 (Ref:3255108)   #13
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I'm not sure about this characterisation of Kobayashi as a crasher.
He wasn't a crasher. He had 1-2 "crashes" a year, perfectly normal. For the amount of ballsy overtakes he attempted, it's actually quite low.
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Old 29 May 2013, 19:03 (Ref:3255116)   #14
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sorry I disagree,

Kobayashi may not have had race finishing DNF crashes that often but he certainly made wreckless/dangerous moves on a regular basis that often resulted in damage for at least one car.
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Old 29 May 2013, 21:09 (Ref:3255194)   #15
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sorry I disagree,

Kobayashi may not have had race finishing DNF crashes that often but he certainly made wreckless/dangerous moves on a regular basis that often resulted in damage for at least one car.
the one that stands out for me was his start and first corner at Korea 2012 and knocking over guys in the pits never helps ones image but by virtue of being a midfield driver are you not inherently going to find yourself in more scrapes then the guys at the sharp end? surely some bumps and scrapes are different then race ending crashes.

also i think he was unfairly labeled by Button's radio comments in his first race (Brazil 2009?) and that 'crazy' or whatever Button called him just stuck.

i dont know maybe im just making excuses for him but i dont feel the perception of him being a crasher matches with what i saw anyways.
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Old 30 May 2013, 05:23 (Ref:3255287)   #16
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Who cares about Perez, Grosjean etc being too wreckless. It makes the sport more exciting to watch! As long as no one is hurt, of course.
So, crashes are awesome except for when someone gets hurt? That people can be hurt highlights one of the critical aspects that makes crashes undesirable. That is to say chalk one for the "not awesome" column.

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Crashes in other formula like touring cars and dirt racing/derbys make it more exciting.
Whilst it is true that when a crash happens it certainly causes excitable reactions in a person, and that an awareness of the risks of motorsport is a part of the allure (I don't think anyone can honestly claim this isn't there to an extent), this a totally different thing to crashes being considered a core central characteristic of racing (that is, wanting and waiting for crashes - then delighting in them when they do).

Sure, when an accident happens it gets the blood flowing, and what not, in the instant, but I don't experience happiness or excited pleasure. The feelings of concern for the condition of the drivers is without question what dominates my thinking (which kicks as soon as that initial fraction of second passes, and the thinking brain kicks in).

I have to chalk up this aspect of things in the "not awesome" column, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor
That crash at the start of the gp2 race 1 was awesome!
So, not only would all the above apply to this, but we can add in the pragmatic side of things that means instantly a bunch of vehicles are out the race (at best totally out of contention). Then we can add all the time wasted under red flags and yellow flags.

So, basically, these kind of events just produce a gigantic list of factors that are the absolute antithesis of racing.

I definitely have to chalk this one up in the "not awesome" column, too.

************

This reminds me of the many conversations I have had with people that have no interest in motorsport, or else only a casual one. They just refuse to believe me that I do not watch motorsport for the crashes, and find it very confusing when I respond that I find it incredible that a person would only watch it for the crashes (or, at least, with it is a central appeal).

I must assume you are significantly interested in motorsport (you'd never be a member of a forum such as this were you not), thus I am just left bemused by your apparent adoration of crashes.
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Old 30 May 2013, 09:03 (Ref:3255357)   #17
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Old 30 May 2013, 09:10 (Ref:3255358)   #18
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i have a counter-question to your one.

do you think that there are far fewer "visible" crashes now thanks to the tarmac run-offs? and as such are we not even noticing guys who have a serious problem recognising the track limits?

i think now that the opportunities for er, crossing the limits in all senses of the words have been increased (ie there's just no incentive *not* to) we're only judging the guys who park it on someone elses car. that's the only way we really see them doing something that would have resulted in a crash 10-20 years ago.
As a racingdriver you have to adapt to the circumstances. 20 years ago a rational driver did not attempt a move if he had a big chance of getting of the track. Nowadays the driver can take that chance, since the penalty is much less, only losing a few seconds or less, if the rules are not enforced. Taking such chances is smart driving. We may or may not like it. If we don't like it, we'd have to change the tracks or the rules so that getting of the track gets you penalised more heavily.

However, when attemting a move means a big chance at hitting the opponents car is, just as 20 years ago, still not a smart thing to do. Although the chance of getting hurt is less, damage on your car will cost you a lot of time, or even retire you. Taking such chances is not smart driving.
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Old 30 May 2013, 10:49 (Ref:3255389)   #19
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20 years ago a rational driver did not attempt a move if he had a big chance of getting of the track
Ahem.....didn't seem to worry Prost,Senna or Schumacher back then.
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Old 30 May 2013, 11:09 (Ref:3255394)   #20
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Well I definitely watch racing for the racing, not the crashes. Otherwise I'd be watching nascar. And yes the safety car periods, red flags, competition being taken out of the race is all not so great.

But I do think a lot of people are going on and on about Grosjean, Maldonado, now Perez being too dangerous, should be suspended, penalised etc. It's just going a bit over the top and too much negativity is being focused on these guys due to them having more incidents than some others. If you're a team owner and it's costing you money, fair game to be frustrated, but we're just watching the sport.

Don't forget old Schumi and Hammo were also having lots of incidents a few years ago... wasn't it 5 times in 1 year that Hammo and Massa came into contact, 2011 was it?

In a years time Perez might not have had any more crashes and this will all be forgotten about.
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Old 30 May 2013, 12:10 (Ref:3255424)   #21
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Originally Posted by darcym View Post
Why does Romain seem to get such a hard time for these crashes compared to Sato/Kobayashi who both (lesser Kobayashi) seemed to cause a lot of incidents/wreckless driving.
because he's name is Romain crashjean...dead give away.

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Well I definitely watch racing for the racing, not the crashes. Otherwise I'd be watching nascar. And yes the safety car periods, red flags, competition being taken out of the race is all not so great.
ouch, I could see all the Nascar fans giving you the evils

crashes may not be racing, but some of them are spectacular to watch in slow mo, dunno who it was but the one from melbourne gp where someone went over the top of another was quite..interesting.
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Old 30 May 2013, 19:52 (Ref:3255672)   #22
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Well I definitely watch racing for the racing, not the crashes. Otherwise I'd be watching nascar. And yes the safety car periods, red flags, competition being taken out of the race is all not so great.

But I do think a lot of people are going on and on about Grosjean, Maldonado, now Perez being too dangerous, should be suspended, penalised etc. It's just going a bit over the top and too much negativity is being focused on these guys due to them having more incidents than some others. If you're a team owner and it's costing you money, fair game to be frustrated, but we're just watching the sport.

Don't forget old Schumi and Hammo were also having lots of incidents a few years ago... wasn't it 5 times in 1 year that Hammo and Massa came into contact, 2011 was it?

In a years time Perez might not have had any more crashes and this will all be forgotten about.
And don't forget Martin Whitmarsh's ill-advised crash kid tag on Vettel. That one didn't stick, for obvious reasons.
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Old 2 Jun 2013, 12:01 (Ref:3256686)   #23
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I think Kobayashi has unfairly been saddled with the image of a driver who crashes a lot, possibly due to the unfortunate "banzai" stereotype that seems still to stick to Japanese drivers. There was an interview with him in Autosport a few months ago which suggested that this was a myth and he had very few incidents.
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Old 3 Jun 2013, 10:15 (Ref:3257049)   #24
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I think Kobayashi has unfairly been saddled with the image of a driver who crashes a lot, possibly due to the unfortunate "banzai" stereotype that seems still to stick to Japanese drivers. There was an interview with him in Autosport a few months ago which suggested that this was a myth and he had very few incidents.
Yes - I don't even know why he is mentioned on this thread. My impression was that one of Kobayashi strong points was his overtaking. Unlike Grosjean.
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Old 3 Jun 2013, 13:12 (Ref:3257127)   #25
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I think Kobayashi has unfairly been saddled with the image of a driver who crashes a lot, possibly due to the unfortunate "banzai" stereotype that seems still to stick to Japanese drivers. There was an interview with him in Autosport a few months ago which suggested that this was a myth and he had very few incidents.
Certainly that is a myth, from Nakajima and the likes, but Koby did nothing but confirm the myth after he's impressive start in F1. It will take a serious talented japanese driver to break through this myth... or maybe a chinese one will come first!
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