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Old 6 Aug 2003, 11:46 (Ref:681179)   #1
Megatron
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Megatron should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just make the DPs faster (why the "new" GTS rules will make DPs look bad again)

Throughout the year, it would appear as if Grand Am has stuck to their guns of not making the DPs any faster whatsoever. Apparently, they like a car that has a hard time beating GT machines as their top class.

Now, with GTS cars nearly winning more than once, they have decided to slash the fuel capicity of the cars. This will work in the overall scheme of things, as the mighty Trans Am (starcasim) machines will now have to pit more. But they will also carry less weight, which means that while they are out there, they will blow the DPs away.

No rule changes for 20 years is something only a series with severe management problems would do, about as bad as saying they didn't care about traditional sports car fans. Yet, if they had any brains, they would at least try to make the cars slightly faster. It's obvious that the times at Daytona are virtually identical to the ones in Feburary, and I have long maintained that a car that uses a GT3 engine as a basline with restricted aerodynamics is going to have a problem gaining speed.

NASCAR typically moves at a snail's pace to change anything. Look at their reply to RYR's request for fuel injection, it was "anything pushing". I give it another ten years with the carbs. Its a shame that Grand Am has little interest in making any kind of adjustments to allow the DPs to get faster, instead, they are far more interested in slowing the other machines down, something Roger E said he wouldn't do in his (now regretable) Q&A.

Why don't they just make GT and GTS run with three wheels for the whole race?
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Old 6 Aug 2003, 15:12 (Ref:681352)   #2
gttouring
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right this GA managment issue is the trouble I have with GA, the DP's should be faster, just lighten the dp's up get rid of the gts problem and run them to FIA/ACO/ALMS spec and GT the same.
Alter DP as it is their TOP class. give them a diet to about 750Kg-that is what 1650 lbs? well Dp's weigh in at 2000 to about 2200 lbs, or 909 kg-1000kg.
with DP's running at 750Kg they will be eligible for any series as a LMP2 (750) and the privatee battles can really fill fields, and they wil be faster than GTS is currently in GA- really with 500 HP and more torque these machines have promise, the aero certainly will keep them slow,
how easy is it to lose 350 lbs any way? lets see um allow magnesium casing for a gearbox- and rotor hats, and flywheel to be aluminium... shrink the window front windscreen size a bit, and the spindles? why is it only a Riley and Scott approved device? see the rules at
http://www.grandamerican.com/daytona...ype/rules.html
there isn't really much room to work here with the rules as far as weight goes, the engine is very heavy and brakes, i bet you can go to carbon brakes, they would lose alot of weigth but grand am has no carbon brakes anywhere...
what else can be done for these potatoes?
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Old 6 Aug 2003, 16:43 (Ref:681407)   #3
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Dauntless should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Taking any significant weight out fo the DPs would entail an entire redesign, and render the current cars uncompetitive. A primary objective of GA was cost stability for the teams, and major changes to the DPs at this stage would violate the spirit of that goal. I don't look for any real changes until the 3-year life of the cars is run out.
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Old 6 Aug 2003, 23:15 (Ref:681662)   #4
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I like the weight of them now, it works. I would like to see more power. The formula is sound, but slowing the GTs is a horrible way to compensate. I wish there were fourty DPs, so that they can run alone. Problem solved, lol. They slow, but they fun to watch!
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 01:36 (Ref:681698)   #5
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The same principles applies to engines as to chassis. The engines are developed to produce specific hp and torque figures, and to last for much longer than open engines. Make more power or shorten the time between rebuilds and costs go up.

As undesirable as it seems, hobbling the GTs is probably the only realistic means of ensuring continued DP dominance.
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 04:12 (Ref:681734)   #6
Kurt Maxwell
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Kurt Maxwell should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The main reason for bringing in World Challenge/GA Cup level cars is cost.

A Ferrari Modena Challenge car or Porsche Carrera Cup car costs much less to buy and run than the ACO GT cars which they are racing now.

The 360 GT is 400k. The Ferrari Challenge 360 can be had for maybe 200K.

Why is it that World Challenge is never attacked for the non-ACO GT rules they run?

When the same level of cars are talked about being raced in G/A it is a crime- or at least an evil plan to make the DPs look faster. Right?
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 16:00 (Ref:682085)   #7
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Burden of history...So far as i know, world challenge never did ACO spec cars. Grand-Am has had ACO type cars for years, but since they are changing the structure of the series they have the weight of the past to shake off.
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 17:43 (Ref:682140)   #8
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the Speed Gt world Challenge and TC are not under the G/A umbrella- the Speed World Challenge cars run there own national championship and run a Gt race in themselves with not "top"class needing to be put high to look better. worldChallenge doesn't dance around witha once mighty 24 hour race and say they and this race are not international nor do they care if it is, they want a NorthAmerican Race Series. The ACO spec cars at the G/A were as dahnx said burden of history. the G/A was an alternate way of teams to run their machinery all year on a lower budget then the level ALMS was on as the ALMS had so much factory involvement as it was a machine to drive LeMans participation from this continent, and better use machines that were one offs for that race in june, and get a little more out of the effort. the G/A saw the costs as getting too high or were too big and couldn't allow for the 'regular guy' and national competitors to be competitive on the international stage. so the rules change, this was so devastating to the 24hr daytona race that they had to further themsleves from this interntional view, and sage it as the big NorthAmerican Enduro for DP's and the gt cars, now the DP's were supposed to be as cost effective as GT andGTS so the ACO cars could run. Problem was the DP's were to young to fight properly and were embarrassed by the ACO spec cars, so they have to change to rules and depart from the international scene to make the series stronger and as an alterate to privateers and a good NorthAmerican Enduro road racing series.
another problem is, as much as I'd be happy racing in GA (because any racing is better than none) many competitors want the big global stage, and the LeMans crown so GA has to legitimately develop their championship with new rules so that any global player can come practice, maybe rever the DP's under racing conditions but not harm the DP or Daytona/Rolex Crown, as GA, and NASCAR headed by the Frances (who ironically had the original mighty IMSA and let that flounder until it disappeared) and the Frances are really very NorthAmericanCentric and 'little guy' supporting they want big grids fun competitive racing and some that any one can join in on. Great Idea really, but when DaytonaPrototypes wee introduced they need to start the whole rule book from scratch as they found out. Too bad History is a burden which has marred the efforts of an other wise quite respectable series (I have been watching more of it and reading about it all,good stuff although I personally can't see why no alliance or aspirations of LeMans makes any sense, afterall what road race is tougher and more glorious?)
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 18:20 (Ref:682161)   #9
Kurt Maxwell
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Kurt Maxwell should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If GA runs the same prototype and GT rules they are said to be trying to ruin the ALMS by drawing away teams to their series.

If they create new rules that are cost effective and bring in those who might not be able to compete at the ACO level they are not fitting in with what LM is doing and that is also a bad thing.

Maybe this is an American series and it doesn't matter if these cars can race at LM or not.
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 20:18 (Ref:682240)   #10
gttouring
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the race calenders for both GA and aLMS need not interfere with each other, no real worries as many races do not interfere and we have many porsche teams doing double duty. even guest drivers from other sereis at GA(somnething ALMS could use more of)
the costeffective rules aren't a bad thing, in fact very ingenious, and GA has stated they are a NorthAmerican championship(speed gt and touring car do not adhere to aco rules, however go by GT rules which accept aco spec, and touring car is not ETCC, or BTCC it is i believe superproduction). the bad thing here is as would be with speed touring cars, is that GA has a world class race in their possesion as TonyGeorge does in the CART/IRL split.
and if you can only play by GA rule in the Daytona 24. this had blemished the manic fights and legendary 24 hour battles at a historic race, and thus the GA has apperaed petty in the same thought. the GT rules should allow GT, and GTS competitors as ALMS, ACO, FIA all agreed to and these fields are not small at all, car can remain competitive for a few years in all these series, notice vipers, listers, the ferarri 550, and the vettes.
nixing the LMP category may be an upset, but exclusion of a whole class at daytona won't devalue it entirely as a sportcar race, as a GTS has won and a GT team. The sorry part is the loss of porper globally defined GT rules inorder to make their DP's look better, you can have your own rules but if it wasn't broke why fix it? DP's could have been an additional category designed for outright wins, withour sacrficing what every one knows and really loves. This is an american series, and many competitors and viewers may not care if it does carry to LeMans, but any Sports Car driver will tell you the big 24 hours at LeMans is on his list, and GA is shutting many people out. and discouraging participation. Speed GT allows for ALMS teams to race, they also have looser rules allowing for some differnt cars to compete which are too powerful to be a touring car but work as a GT like the Audi Rs6 twinturbo, it is fat and ugly and 4 wheel drive, but it has won and it is a scorcher, good fun, much like the GA however the Speed GT never masquerades once a year nor does it have any intention of being international other than north america, where GA has been international by default of the Dyatona 24, the IMSA it used to be (which is now the sanction for ALMS ironically) and an international series becoming a smaller bi-national series is hard to many fans and they have to build themselves up again, I know you are fond of playing devils advocate as I have read many of your other posts in other threads Mr. Maxwell, but wow, you are tenacious. One question, do you understand the points I bring up?, even if you do not agree.
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 21:41 (Ref:682312)   #11
Kurt Maxwell
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Yes.
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Old 7 Aug 2003, 23:47 (Ref:682435)   #12
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LouisTheShark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLouisTheShark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
gttouring. A lot of your "history" is wrong. It was during the France era that the series created its own rules that were later adapted internationally. It was during the France era when IMSA was most popular and they sold it when Mike Cone offered them some outrageous purchase price. They brought more sponsorship Dollars to the series than any other owner since. The France IMSA was a domestic series that was brought in by the ACO and FIA. Not the other way around. When Le Mans needed entrants they created IMSA classes to fill their field.

While you are right that many would like to drive at Le Mans, the focus of most North American sports car teams has been North America. Racing is like politics (it is politics), you have to start in your own backyard first.

Last edited by LouisTheShark; 7 Aug 2003 at 23:49.
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Old 8 Aug 2003, 00:26 (Ref:682450)   #13
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oh- i giess i missundeterstood,i remember camel GT,
IMSA under frances was very good. It is good to know the frances had a good idea that everyone adopted, and so I wasn't too intersted in sponsorship dollar fights, but why then did imsa (first one) collapse?
and that being so and their great track record what are they doing that is so goofy right now?
The old IMSA apparently seemed as progressive as the current version and the new GA is a little stodgy eh?
although I secretly hope DP's are accepted, I do think the GA rules concerning GT and GtS if the 2 separates even exist, is a bit off in thinking...they just miscalculated the performance potential of DP's and now everything has to change, and likely this time around the GA/ France run oraganisation is not likely to be loved by ACO or FIA.
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Old 8 Aug 2003, 15:57 (Ref:682993)   #14
LouisTheShark
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LouisTheShark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLouisTheShark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The first IMSA collapsed because the one mistake they made was to rely on manufacturers to fill grids. People got tired of the domination and started watching other series with more competition. Manufacturer involvement means costs start to spiral out of control and the privateers just cannot compete. There is a handful of U.S. sports car fans that don't mind a lack of competition, but even the ALMS must realize by now that they have reached them all.

Mike Cone was also a crook (he is a convicted felon - so this is fact) that drained all the resources out of IMSA. Andy Evans just finished it off with mismanagement. When Cone bought IMSA he still had good people working for him, but when the staff is not given the resources, then it is difficult to make it work.

For better or worse, the ALMS is going the same direction that failed the France era IMSA. Now the France family wants to try a different approach that they think will work better in the long term.

Last edited by LouisTheShark; 8 Aug 2003 at 16:04.
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Old 8 Aug 2003, 18:15 (Ref:683127)   #15
gttouring
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very good louis, thanks for the tidbits
ALMS is getting quite thin i realize, however, Making Gt slower is the wrong way to go, the DP idea isn't off I think there are more options and it wasn't fully considered.
I have mentioned in a few threads-after i read more about them that the DP idea isn't entirely new, infact the Euroc racers are similar in concept, and would have been and sill should be a good alternate to DP's and prototype class racing, for customers and to fill fields. they look right nice as well.
ALMS may pull up as the GTS field gets bigger and this may be the primary factory playgorund where few privateers except rafenelli, ever go anyway. perhaps the Prototypes will fall to private hands as GT and the GTS will be the big fights. with 2 cars per factory, now we have 4, with PANOZ coming, saleen, Vipers, we get six more, 10 car grid is tiny sad. i am sure more will come. Porsche? Maserati? that may make 12, or 14 so it is possible to be good but the ineveitable is true as you point out, they need a good customer/racer base and privateer entrants to make it live
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