Super5000 Series Is Go??

[Ospi]

There shortened diffuser is not related to packaging issues, it's an intentional decision to reduce rear downforce to ensure correct aero balance with the reduced overall downforce that they wanted to achieve. Lap time was never there goal of their car, it's intention is to have cars moving around with good grunt.

[champcarman]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Hand timed... Mr Tander did 2 flyers this morning.. and managed a best of a 1.14..

Definitely lifted off super early for turn 1, and others. And made it make that growl that was missing yesterday.

Plus using former and/or current Supercars drivers rather than an open driver was never going to show the car anywhere near its potential, Tim Macrow showed the prototype car well at the GC last year .

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by champcarman

Plus using former and/or current Supercars drivers rather than an open driver was never going to show the car anywhere near its potential, Tim Macrow showed the prototype car well at the GC last year .

Me Tander did bloody well to step out of his GRM Commodore having popped it into the shootout, to have hopped aboard the Ess5000 less than 10 minutes later...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ospi

Lap time was never there goal of their car, it's intention is to have cars moving around with good grunt.

The concern is they are going to be very slow even compared to, say, Randle in this Formula 3.5 V8 car... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1XSqql3SfI

Watching F1 grand prixs for example, we see that the cars move around plenty despite the mighty (and spectacular) 4 to 5 cornering g's generated by the down force. Surely the point of an open wheel class awarded the Australian Driver's Championship is to have a high level of performance?

F5000s of the 70's were state of the art for the time... They were consistent with the expectations of a Formula car and similar to an F1 of the time. Likewise Formula Brabham were a contemporary Formula 3000 car fitted with a cheaper engine. Shouldn't a modern F5000 be consistent with the state of the art?

[Woolley]

Speed is over-rated. What they need is to look exciting and race well. Something sadly lacking in many modern SS cars.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Speed is over-rated. What they need is to look exciting and race well. Something sadly lacking in many modern SS cars.

True, but a faster car IS more likely to look exciting on the track. Assuming GTRMagic's hand timing was accurate, the car was 4 seconds off the quali pace of a Supercar when not being pushed to the limit(he noted he lfited off way early for turn 1 at the very least). This tells me there's probably no concern with looking exciting, so it's just a question of racing well.

[champcarman]

Pretty sure Mr Macrow was a fair bit faster than the "Supercars" at the GC last year and this car should be at least as good . Expect low 20s at PI and SMP.

[Mixer]

So many of the places they have demoed have been really bumpy, in a car without enough compliance. Leanne Tander's comments after her demo run can't be repeated!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

So many of the places they have demoed have been really bumpy, in a car without enough compliance. Leanne Tander's comments after her demo run can't be repeated!

Are you suggesting Borland have not incorporated enough suspension travel.

Originally Posted by champcarman

Pretty sure Mr Macrow was a fair bit faster than the "Supercars" at the GC last year and this car should be at least as good . Expect low 20s at PI and SMP.

V8 Supercars are around 30 seconds per lap slower than a Formula 1, while GP2/Formula V8 3.5 are around 10 seconds per lap slower than a Formula 1.

It would be a disappointment if the laptimes are much closer to a sedan than to (what should be) comparable Formula 3000 style cars.

How can a S5000 be world class if it is barely faster, or in fact slower, than a Formula 3 with an engine that's less than half the size.......

It seems a huge mis-step to not hire a competent aerodynamicist such as Sammy Diasinis (ex-F1 who designed the winning Porsche 968 time attack car) to design an efficient and raceable aero kit for the S5000. As Mr. Newey demonstates time and time again, aerodynamics are by far and away the most important aspect of building a wings and slicks open wheel racing car.

[V8 Fireworks]

Any reference junior car would by the "lowly" four cylinder Indylights car which produces a modest 500hp from it's 2.0L four cylinder AER turbocharged racing engine which weighs a svelte 95kg sans turbos and intercoolers (dramatically less than the 195kg Coyote V8 that barely makes much more power)...

The zippy, small engined Indylights with downforce nips gracefully through the bends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSdjC-mNhf4
While AER boss Andrew Saunders explains his 2L racing engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acCFICgeia0

How can S5000 be Australia's Indycar, if it's not enough as fast as Indylights!

For interest, AER also built the 3.4L naturally aspirated V6 which was previously used in GP3, and which (curiously) sounds approximately 100 times better than V6 used in Formula Holden!

[Jam3s]

Let the car actually run in proper anger with a developed setup. We will see if it showed enough to attract some buyers.

IMO the target lap time should be around that of a LMP3 car which I think is possible with a tuned setup on it and a driver not at 70% like we saw on the weekend.

[Jam3s]

Originally Posted by Mixer

So many of the places they have demoed have been really bumpy, in a car without enough compliance. Leanne Tander's comments after her demo run can't be repeated!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Didn't she run the original supercars 5000 car only?

[FormulaFox]

V8 Fireworks, I know I've harped on this a lot and am very much sounding like a broken record, but this simply cannot be emphasized enough when it comes to setting our expectations.

The base car is an F3 car. Not a Formula 3000 car, not an Indy Lights car, a Formula THREE car - one that could barely manage a full second over an USF2000 car at Mid-Ohio(and was FOUR seconds off the pace of a Pro Mazda). Outside of the engine, transmission, and tires, all changes are geared towards adapting the car to those aforementioned changes, not necessarily about squeezing out every last tiny bit of potential performance. The car is not geared towards high downforce as Indy Lights cars are, either, but towards a balance of downforce and mechanical grip. To expect Indy Lights(let alone better) performance when you take all this into account is rather optimistic.

What it SHOULD be, and what it CAN be, are two different things.

I personally hope greatly that it can have a performance level on par with Indy Lights at the very least, but cost control has been a major component of the development of the class, and that's affected a lot in ways that are not always obvious. So let's not get our hopes up and be reasonable - we can't always have what we want, but the series doesn't necessarily need to be on that level to be exciting.

If it can't even perform on the level of a Lights car than it is indeed optimistic to call it Australia's version of IndyCar, but consider that F5000 was once considered a potential competitor to F1, or at the very least a regional answer to it, despite being a fair bit slower. But rather importantly, S5000 IS still going to be the fastest single-seater class in Australia, even if the pessimistic end of the expectations come to be true, so "Australia's IndyCar" would still not be an unfair claim to make.

A series doesn't HAVE to be on exactly the same level to perform the same task, much as we may want it to.

[Langers]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Surely the point of an open wheel class awarded the Australian Driver's Championship is to have a high level of performance?

At some point with more downforce / cornering speed you'll run out of racetracks in Australia with the appropriate FIA grading to run the cars.

[GTRMagic]

[FormulaFox]

I think we can take that as a good sign. If experienced drivers are finding it fun then it should be plenty capable of putting on a good show.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

V8 Fireworks, I know I've harped on this a lot and am very much sounding like a broken record, but this simply cannot be emphasized enough when it comes to setting our expectations.

The base car is an F3 car. Not a Formula 3000 car, not an Indy Lights car, a Formula THREE car - one that could barely manage a full second over an USF2000 car at Mid-Ohio(and was FOUR seconds off the pace of a Pro Mazda). Outside of the engine, transmission, and tires, all changes are geared towards adapting the car to those aforementioned changes, not necessarily about squeezing out every last tiny bit of potential performance. The car is not geared towards high downforce as Indy Lights cars are, either, but towards a balance of downforce and mechanical grip. To expect Indy Lights(let alone better) performance when you take all this into account is rather optimistic.

So many of those comparisons mean absolutely nothing here in Australia. We don't have Pro Mazda, Indy Lights or USF2000. Or Mid-Ohio.

So long as the car gives the outright lap records a nudge, in the area of 5-8 seconds faster than a Supercar dependant on tracks, the car will be fast enough. The trick will be getting more than 15 on the grid. 30 should be the aim, but 15 would be a bit ****.

I can't help but feel the line "Australia's Indycar" was a PR line, not an aim in terms of speed, show, or performance.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

So many of those comparisons mean absolutely nothing here in Australia. We don't have Pro Mazda, Indy Lights or USF2000. Or Mid-Ohio.

Well, that comment was directed at V8 Fireworks, who DID use IndyCar and Indy Lights in his comment, so I drew a comparison with things that had a direct point of comparison(Mid-Ohio performance) to what he'd mentioned.

[Casper]

If this series takes off is it going to be part of the tin top forum. For instance if I would like to start a new thread concerning this series where do I post it?

[Jam3s]

Car looks good from the onboard at the Adelaide festival, still nowhere near the limit. I reckon they'll take the lap record today with some fresh rubber.

[GTRMagic]

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Casper

If this series takes off is it going to be part of the tin top forum. For instance if I would like to start a new thread concerning this series where do I post it?

Right here will be fine

[mayhem]

Any chance of bringing the 12 hour threads back in here while we're at it?

[FormulaFox]

Eight tenths off an old Leyton House F1 car? I know we're not talking a frontrunner, but we're still talking a car that scored points in F1 during the days where they only awarded points down to 6th. So I think we can relax our concerns about the car's performance now.

For the record, if the info I've dug up is accurate, that means the car's lap time was 1:19.6 - on par with the Supercars.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Eight tenths off an old Leyton House F1 car? I know we're not talking a frontrunner, but we're still talking a car that scored points in F1 during the days where they only awarded points down to 6th. So I think we can relax our concerns about the car's performance now.

For the record, if the info I've dug up is accurate, that means the car's lap time was 1:19.6 - on par with the Supercars.

What are you comparing to? This track is a whole lot shorter than the one Supercars runs on at the start of the season