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Old 16 Jun 2017, 16:58 (Ref:3742258)   #4831
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I bet Porsche and Toyota leave in 2019. Porsche has GTE, and they'll be fine with a works program there. Toyota has been in meetings with future f1 rules, so there's a chance they go there in 2020 when the new rules on engines is implemented.

I see mostly negatives in these new rules. The cars will be taller and cockpit wider, making them look even more like those ungainly DP's from a few years ago. Closing up underbody aero which is the biggest contributor to performance. All they have to do is allow some tunnels front to rear and you wouldn't need complex turning vanes behind the front wing. The rules also push a double negative. You want to reduce costs, but now they have to invest in researching a totally new design thanks to the cockpit and chassis rules, research into a plug-in hybrid, research which area gives the biggest gain (but still researching all areas)...

Added to that is taking away all the aero knowledge behind the front wing that has been in place since 2014. One body kit will compromise the car when they allow two body kits for LMP2, that's a head scratcher. Reduce wind tunnel hours which will promote more expensive and less reliable CFD, they even admit that. Reduced testing which is the cheapest thing to get your car right (look at what F1 to see no one can catch up if they got it wrong) and push it so the WEC says when and where you can test, but not during the car's actual development period.

The worst thing, they're pushing even more with this electric/hybrid stuff when they said they were going to simplify things! Going 1km on electric power at full race speed will require a huge undertaking for anyone looking to join. There's nothing about non-hybrids being allowed, just a vague mention of alternative fuels being evaluated. What does that mean? I don't really see many positives when you actually look at the things they're proposing. They won't reduce budgets, they'll raise them!
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:06 (Ref:3742261)   #4832
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Will anyone turn up for Nurburgring is now the question.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:09 (Ref:3742262)   #4833
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Will anyone turn up for Nurburgring is now the question.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:13 (Ref:3742265)   #4834
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I bet Porsche and Toyota leave in 2019. Porsche has GTE, and they'll be fine with a works program there. Toyota has been in meetings with future f1 rules, so there's a chance they go there in 2020 when the new rules on engines is implemented.
Porsche actually don't seem that unhappy with the 2020 rules.

I think the bigger question is what they'll do between now and 2020 and if they'll tough it out with the ageing car or go on hiatus to come back swinging in 2020.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:17 (Ref:3742266)   #4835
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Porsche actually don't seem that unhappy with the 2020 rules.

I think the bigger question is what they'll do between now and 2020 and if they'll tough it out with the ageing car or go on hiatus to come back swinging in 2020.
Sounded like he was being generous there. But was it just that or was he being genuine?
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:30 (Ref:3742270)   #4836
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Will anyone turn up for Nurburgring is now the question.
Why is that 'the' question?

The answer is yes.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 17:51 (Ref:3742278)   #4837
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The EV mode idea sounds amazingly stupid marketing gimmick. It will affect the races otherwise too, since it is probably safe to assume the cars aren't going to be going as fast in EV only. And also dangerous due speed differences. And imagine a close race, one more lap to go... time for EV MODE! And then the cars crawl over the finish line.

Other than that, more or less the same and I'm afraid it is not enough. All these nominal cost saving and development do is make them find smaller margins elsewhere and if the initial choices are wrong, then make in-season catch up harder. You'd think F1 would have already proven this.

At least the one bodykit with movable aero LM config in mind makes sense and more sense than the current two, which has now ruined two races.

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Old 16 Jun 2017, 18:05 (Ref:3742280)   #4838
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Here is full pdf release:

http://assets.lemans.org/explorer/pd...egulations.pdf

More detailed parts:



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Old 16 Jun 2017, 18:27 (Ref:3742285)   #4839
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Porsche actually don't seem that unhappy with the 2020 rules.

I think the bigger question is what they'll do between now and 2020 and if they'll tough it out with the ageing car or go on hiatus to come back swinging in 2020.
“Not necessarily, I think there have been a lot of measures in place which will decrease costs significantly. At the same time you have to work on developing the new stuff. I said today as well that the discussion was not just between Porsche, Toyota and Peugeot, the ACO and FIA had other manufacturers involved as well in the discussion. I think there was a huge agreement between all of us on a lot of topics. I think we have everything we want on the table.

At least that's "encouraging", but sitting on a metting is along way from being ever on the grid of course.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 18:45 (Ref:3742288)   #4840
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Why is that 'the' question?

The answer is yes.
Sorry, I missed the winkie for the fatuous remark. I just wanted to join in.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 19:36 (Ref:3742300)   #4841
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Siedl and Leupin seem to be skeptical to say the least about the new regs in the Motorsport Total article. Yes, the simplified aero will probably save some money, since you only will have one primary kit, though changes are allowed to be made to it to suit different tracks (as I said, think LMP900 and first gen LMP1) with active aero allowing in theory only minor changes having to be made to a sprint kit to make it ready for Le Mans. Not to mention that road cars have had affordable active aero for years.

However, the EV stuff is just a gimmick from my POV and the plug in hybrid stuff (provision for it), though several road cars have it, none of the current hybrid LMP1s have it, and it will be probably expensive to implement. It's one thing to put a hybrid system on a road car, it's proven to be another to do it on a race car.

Also, limiting development to any 1-3 of four areas a season doesn't seem to help, either, because teams will then spend a lot of money on one or two areas at the exclusion of others.

Also, the ACO trying to limit private testing by encouraging teams to attend collective test probably won't save much, either, because the teams will still have to bring the same equipment, personnel, and what not to those tests that they do for a private test. Unless the ACO plan on selling tickets for them to get fans to attend, I don't see how that would amortize costs.

I don't see a ton to get excited about with these regs as they stand. They don't seem to be a ton "simpler", instead, it seems like a lot of the same from the ACO that created this mess to begin with. They should've just tweaked the 2013 regs to have slightly more emphasis on hybrids, rather than try and reinvent the wheel, put a huge incentive on 8MJ hybrids and give teams initially three years to get there.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 19:40 (Ref:3742301)   #4842
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Also, the ACO trying to limit private testing by encouraging teams to attend collective test probably won't save much, either, because the teams will still have to bring the same equipment, personnel, and what not to those tests that they do for a private test. Unless the ACO plan on selling tickets for them to get fans to attend, I don't see how that would amortize costs.
It'll always be cheaper to test at an organised test session than it would be to hire the circuit yourself.
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 19:56 (Ref:3742306)   #4843
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How much would the teams save by having the ACO pay to rent the track instead of doing it themselves? To me, it's like the argument of shortening Petit Le Mans from 1000mile/10 hours to 6 hours? You may save a bit due to using less fuel and tires, but the overall cost won't change much because the same number of people spend the same number of days at the track and the same days/fees at hotels.

If the ACO are willing to pay for it, fine, let them, since IMO it's the least they can do, but the teams will still spend the same number of days at the track if it's a 1-2 day test, and the same costs for tires, fuel, and accommodations. Let alone if the ACO decide to sanction 30+hour endurance tests. I think that the track fees only will make a small dent in what teams spend.

IMO, I don't know if I should consider these proposed regs a change for the better, or just more of the same from the ACO that's gotten them here in the first place.

And other than Toyota, Porsche and Peugeot, I'd like to know which other manufacturers were in on these talks other than Audi (prior to the end of 2016).
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 19:59 (Ref:3742307)   #4844
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How much would the teams save by having the ACO pay to rent the track instead of doing it themselves? To me, it's like the argument of shortening Petit Le Mans from 1000mile/10 hours to 6 hours? You may save a bit due to using less fuel and tires, but the overall cost won't change much because the same number of people spend the same number of days at the track and the same days/fees at hotels.

If the ACO are willing to pay for it, fine, let them, since IMO it's the least they can do, but the teams will still spend the same number of days at the track if it's a 1-2 day test, and the same costs for tires, fuel, and accommodations. Let alone if the ACO decide to sanction 30+hour endurance tests. I think that the track fees only will make a small dent in what teams spend.
A small dent is better than no dent.

You know the saying "Every cloud has a silver lining?"

Well this is more like "Every silver lining has a cloud"
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Old 16 Jun 2017, 20:00 (Ref:3742308)   #4845
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I don't completely get the reduction of testing either. At least so far just a reduction, that release says "very limited number of private tests". I don't want to the races to become testing sessions. And even if there were more collective tests than now I think the overall amount of test days still drops. Private tests match better the development schedules.

There was already a rule in place where manufacturers could have only a certain amount of private tests, rest of the days were "semi-private" and had to be made made available to other teams if they wished to join (Porsche/Audi/Toyota didn't appear... ever? together though, probably due secrecy).

F1 banned private testing long time ago, and it has not returned (except in-season collective tests for 1 season), so there must be some cost saving there, but F1 also races nearly every other week, and F1 teams used to use secondary teams for testing, so it is a bit different.
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