Do Senna fans really hate Michael Schumacher?!! - Page 2

calais · 10 May 2002, 12:42 (Ref:281857)

steve r, how long have you been watching F1????
93 was schui's 3rd season in F1, so experience was not an issue {his second full season}.
senna had to contend with prost, mansell, piquet,berger, etc..
MS has had poor competition by comparison

**Bononi** · 10 May 2002, 12:53 (Ref:281866)

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoong Montoya
I read somewhere that at the start of MS career the Brazillian television station refered to him as 'the German', never by his real name! Is this true? And, do fans of Senna try to put Schumacher down due to his so-called dirty tactics, when in fact they are also putting Senna down without knowing it, since he used tactics that were even worse than MS?

If this is the case, then the only thing I can conclude that for a successful driver to be considered a true great, he has to get killed while racing!

Well, Yoong Montoya.

I don't know where you read that, but it's not true.

I'm not a Senna fan, never been, and I witnessed the begining of both careers, by the view of the brazilian media.

TGF always was referred by his name. And he always been respected by the brazilian crowd, and is very popular here.

The way that the commentators talk about him, I guess, is much the way that Murray Walker used to do.

Maybe there's a little confusion in the way that people use to express concerning to a certain person.

It's very usual refer to TGF, when he is making his flying lap like : "Lá vem o alemão !!!" that is "Here comes the German !!!", expressing that the he's the big guy of F1 and will make the pole.

The only time I can remember the use of a expression meaning dislike, was about Prost, as the commentator ( a very close friend of Senna) referred to him as "The little frenchman"

R · 10 May 2002, 12:56 (Ref:281868)

Laudaman, you are spot on. Of course TGF had competition from Hill, Jacques and Mika. The point is that none of these were of the same calibre as Prost, who Senna had to contend with. Had Senna not been killed, we would have seen TGF's real value. No, he never was, and never will be, in the same league as Senna.

steve_r · 10 May 2002, 12:57 (Ref:281870)

Doesn't time fly! Only 2nd full season though. So, he had about the same experience as Button.

Schu also had to contend with Prost, Mansell, Berger... Did they become poorer competition when driving against Schu? (Berger?)
Actually you have a good point, When the above-mentioned guys dissappeared from the scene, F1 seemed in a state of flux. Hakkinen, Hill & Schu emerged as the new guys to beat. Therefore it is very hard to compare the different eras.

R · 10 May 2002, 13:09 (Ref:281890)

It is hard, because the one guy who's presence would have answered that question beyond doubt died.

facco · 10 May 2002, 14:20 (Ref:281949)

If TGF is in the same league as was Senna....
No, simple. I wont explain my point as Mr R, Mr. Freud, Mr. Laudaman, Mr. Sato San.... to Mr. Calais I can't agree since I don't hate TGF since that is a kind of love.

calais · 10 May 2002, 14:30 (Ref:281955)

WHAT??????

steve_r · 10 May 2002, 14:35 (Ref:281961)

Calais, we are in agreement.
WHAT??????

Mantis13 · 10 May 2002, 17:39 (Ref:282072)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz
And in that way I think that Senna and TGF are exactly alike. Both men lived above the law and believed that this was their divine right.

Well said Liz, I couldn't agree more.

Damon · 10 May 2002, 17:54 (Ref:282077)

steve r, as a Hill fan I'm very flattered that you saw him as the equal of Alain Prost. As much as I supported the guy it was always clear to me that he clearly wasn't.

The generation that existed prior to Hill, Schu etc. were a level obove what we have had since. I'm not sure what it is but that was the case. Schu was probably close to the previous generation but not quite there. His domination over the last few years has shown how many all time greats are currently in the sport. It would seem only one. Senna came and conquored Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Berger etc. And did it in often under powered cars.

Liz I have to disagree with your views as, having watched virtually the whole of his career, I was never aware of such a side to the man. I think your views are possibly distorted by your unexplained dislike for the guy?

expert · 10 May 2002, 19:37 (Ref:282135)

strange that nobody ever mentioned that senna had to cope with prost -a quadruple world champion- at the peak of his career AND IN THE SAME TEAM (mclaren, who -unlike benneton and ferrari- always treated their drivers equally)...

during this time senna blew prost away in qualifying as if he were a novice-taxidriver (so to speak, because ofcourse prost quite knew how to do it as well...)

this proves senna's sheer talent to drive unbelievingly fast, whereas schumacher secret to succes seems to lie in the tactical and psychological area's of the sport...

this -IMO- proves that senna definitely is the better (more talented) driver but when it comes to winning... well, schumacher is certainly on same level.

but on the human side... senna's -almost mythical- carisma will never be matched ever again: and that, in my humble point of view, makes him really the greatest driver of all time.

facco · 10 May 2002, 22:27 (Ref:282238)

Quote:

Originally posted by facco
If TGF is in the same league as was Senna....
No, simple. I wont explain my point as Mr R, Mr. Freud, Mr. Laudaman, Mr. Sato San.... to Mr. Calais I can't agree since I don't hate TGF since that is a kind of love.

What?

this happens when you try to distract from posting doing some work along.
TGF and Senna will never be the same (look at Liz quoute signature)
R, Freud, Laudaman, Sato San you left my post empty as you have said everything.
Expert.... this standing ovation for ya!stands up and claps

Champ69 · 10 May 2002, 23:21 (Ref:282267)

I admire both Senna and Scumi but I feel that Senna running of Prost was worse than Scumis incidents as it was premeditated.

calais · 11 May 2002, 04:30 (Ref:282350)

and how do you know TFG didnt "premeditate" his incidents.
its his word, which frankly isnt worth much. like the time he didint see frentzen coming out of the pits in canada 2000.
yeah, right!!

freud · 11 May 2002, 05:03 (Ref:282360)

Schumacher hitting Hill [94] or JV [97] was much worse than Senna running of Prost [90]. Senna was hard done by the french FIA president who was bent upon favoring the french Prost, and his frustration led him to the act. On the other hand Schumacher tried to deliberately take two drivers out of the track and win a title in the process. In both cases he was leading the points table and perfectly knew that in case of an accident with both drivers retiring, he would win the title. He won one title [1994] which he didnt deserve and JV was extremely lucky to survive the nasty hit and win the title.

drexel · 11 May 2002, 06:05 (Ref:282376)

Quote:

Schumacher hitting Hill [94] or JV [97] was much worse than Senna running of Prost [90].

Huh?

In what way? Surely not in terms of speed of the crash.

Motive?
So Senna was getting revenge on the FIA because they treated him unfairly...but the suspensions for Michael in 94 were fair?

Also Michael hit Damon because his car was broke and he had no chance to win....at least Schumacher raced (94 and 97) until it was obvious he couldn't win...

Senna didn't even bother.

Senna may be the most talented driver ever, but the tactics he used were no different to Michael. Why do you think Michael even adopted those tactics in the first place? He didn't invent them.

f1manoz · 11 May 2002, 06:10 (Ref:282379)

As far as I'm concerned, Senna and TGF were as bad as each other when it came to their tactics to win certain world titles.

People seem to have clouded memories in regards to Senna.

calais · 11 May 2002, 06:21 (Ref:282384)

Quote:

Originally posted by drexel

Huh?

In what way? Surely not in terms of speed of the crash.

Motive?
So Senna was getting revenge on the FIA because they treated him unfairly...but the suspensions for Michael in 94 were fair?

Also Michael hit Damon because his car was broke and he had no chance to win....at least Schumacher raced (94 and 97) until it was obvious he couldn't win...

that above comment makes no sense. if i read it correctly, you are saying senna was wrong to retire with a broken car, but it was alright for TFG to take someone out because HIS was unraceworthy?????
also the 94 suspension was for the the arrogance of IGNORING a black flag. the punishment fit the crime!!

Guy Goddard2 · 11 May 2002, 09:07 (Ref:282423)

Intresting replies to two great drivers...

I have read in Richard Williams book "The death of Aryton Senna" that Adriane refers to Aryton wanting to drive a Ferrari before he retired regardless of money or capability of the car as it was a dream of his.

Assuming he was still with us today does anyone think he would have achieved this dream.

Also one thing bothers me in this book concerning Damon Hills comments at the trial where his replies were as though he held information back.
Not being able to remember if the 94 car was raced with or without power steering in the first two rounds is one example and no recolation if it had power steering in 93.

Regards

Guy

paulzinho · 11 May 2002, 09:19 (Ref:282428)

Interesting that you mention the power steering in your post Guy because i've heard a story that Sennas power steering failed and that the extra force Senna used to turn the steering wheel broke the steering column. Anyone else heard this?

Champ69 · 11 May 2002, 11:52 (Ref:282486)

Quote:

Originally posted by calais
and how do you know TFG didnt "premeditate" his incidents.
its his word, which frankly isnt worth much. like the time he didint see frentzen coming out of the pits in canada 2000.
yeah, right!!

Senna said that he planned to take Prost out if he did not give way to him on the start. That is fact and if required to I shall find the quote for you.

I can imagine TGF sitting at the start and saying on lap ?? if that Canadian *(&# tries to get past me I will mess up my entry and take him out. I can see the chance of that LOL.

Wasn’t that 1998 that Schumi pushed Frentzen into the sand in Canada, and having looked at the video of that it is very plausible that TGF did not see Frentzen when entering the track. But he sould have been given a stop and go as he crossed the undotted line when exiting the pits (aka Ralf in 2001)

Champ69 · 11 May 2002, 11:59 (Ref:282487)

Quote:

Originally posted by freud
Schumacher hitting Hill [94] or JV [97] was much worse than Senna running of Prost [90]. Senna was hard done by the french FIA president who was bent upon favoring the french Prost, and his frustration led him to the act. On the other hand Schumacher tried to deliberately take two drivers out of the track and win a title in the process. In both cases he was leading the points table and perfectly knew that in case of an accident with both drivers retiring, he would win the title. He won one title [1994] which he didnt deserve and JV was extremely lucky to survive the nasty hit and win the title.

The FIA president disagreed that the pole position should be switched from the side of the track that it was originally on. By the way didn't senna win because he took of Prost.

And the fact that he did it due to political reasons, and was premeditated make it ok.

You are very amusing, you are basically saying that it is not ok to murder someone in the heat of battle but it is ok to murder someone if you have a point to prove and have planned it.

Champ69 · 11 May 2002, 12:02 (Ref:282489)

Quote:

Originally posted by f1manoz
As far as I'm concerned, Senna and TGF were as bad as each other when it came to their tactics to win certain world titles.

People seem to have clouded memories in regards to Senna.

Agreed.

Damon · 11 May 2002, 12:47 (Ref:282557)

Senna did it once for the reasons that we are attempting to drill into you people. Schu has done it time and time again as he is about to be beaten fair and square. Thats the difference.

Champ69 · 11 May 2002, 13:05 (Ref:282580)

Schu has done it twice.

Hill took Schumacher of the track a great number of times in 1995, It was not for that championship but he overestimated his ability on a few occasions.

And who are "you people" and what are you trying to drill? that schu is a dirty driver? or that he is dirtier than senna?

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