Group A – unusual cars around the world

[Jesper OH]

There are simply LOADS of pictures to be found at the Biante link in it's 60+ pages as of now! Thank you Malscar and other contributers to that page.

Jesper

[KA]

Originally Posted by KA

The Reanult 11 Turbo- small capacity turbo cars never seemed to catch on in the 1600-2500 class for some reason- apart from the Metro turbos, the only others I can think of are a few 1.4 litre Renaults- usually the 5, but occasionally an 11- Again a car that was fairly successful in rallying but never translated this to the circuits
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-050.jpg

Another Group A Renault- Roger Saunders at the British GP meeting BTCC round in 1987 (photo copyright Phil Rainford, originally posted on the Atlas/Autosport Nostalgia Forum)
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...960/img013.jpg

During 1986/7 when the BTCC was in pretty poor shape, quite a few Renault 5GT turbo one-make series competitors took in the occasional BTCC round, encouraged by the the changes in the class structure to include a 1600-2000 class for 1987.

As I recall, Saunders was one of the most regularly seen, and I think did much of the '87 season- I think his car had been upgraded to something like full Group A spec by then?

Alex Postan also ran a 5GT Turbo in the 1986 TT- I should have a pic somewhere at home, I'll add it to my 'to do' list for scanning this weekend...

Slightly off-topic, in that it never actually raced, but I believe Renault looked at the idea of running the Fuego 1.6 Turbo
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...bo-120_143.jpg
in the BTCC around 1983/4, but were put off the idea by all the legal and eligibility arguing that surrounded the series at that time. If I remember the story correctly, the project might have got as far as a prototype car being built and tested, and could have been a useful weapon in the 2.5 litre class...

[brendonwood1]

Since the thread is going slightly off-topic by discussing the Renault Fuego Turbo that never actually raced, can anyone shed any light on the rumours that at least one factory Audi 200 quattro was going to contest the 1987 World Touring Car Championship? I remember reading the rumours in either Auto Action or Racing Car News at the time.
Was this anything more than just speculation, or did it have legs? My memory suggests Hans Stuck was to be one of the likely drivers.

[banger_racer]

Iam not sure which Group A thread to post this link as it cover various cars.
So i'll post here and someone can sort the relevent info out.

http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/blog...group-a-lovin/

that page contains some other interesting links as well as some youtube video.

[KA]

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

Since the thread is going slightly off-topic by discussing the Renault Fuego Turbo that never actually raced, can anyone shed any light on the rumours that at least one factory Audi 200 quattro was going to contest the 1987 World Touring Car Championship? I remember reading the rumours in either Auto Action or Racing Car News at the time.
Was this anything more than just speculation, or did it have legs? My memory suggests Hans Stuck was to be one of the likely drivers.

I don't remember much on this, but there was definitely some speculation in the European press late in '86- think I remember there being mentions of it in Autosport. TWR and possibly Carlsson (who ran Merc 190s in the '86 ETCC) might have been amongst the teams connected with the story (though I think in late '86, TWR were being connected with pretty much every manufacturer in the book for the WTCC....)

Did a 200 Quattro ever race in Germany? I know the V8 ran in the DTM in the early 90's, but was the 200 ever actually raced?

[collector]

Did a 200 Quattro ever race in Germany?

Yes, Freddy Kottulinsky did some races in 1986, not very fast...

[chunterer]

Hmmm, would've thought the 200 was a bit of an unwieldly beast. Mind you it was certainly alright as a rally car and the soon to come V8 Quattro was a very good race car in DTM?

I know we've covered it in the Capri thread, but there was a one off 2.8i Group A muletta entered in the 1982 TT by Andy Rouse to work out if that engine had any potential to prolong the Capri's racing life in touring cars.

I believe it was an ex CC Spice/Belga chassis and whilst no one could surely have decided it was a duff on the basis of one race, no one was prepared to develop that engine afterwards for the BTCC.

I also have a suspicion that there was serious interest in seeing if the Fiat Croma Turbo or Saab 9000 Turbo would make a useful big class proposition? Coincidentally the cars shared the same floorplan IIRC (along with the Lancia Thema and possibly Renault 25?)

I'm pretty sure there was a Saab test hack at one point in either 1984 or '85.
Strictly speaking it probably isn't relevant if one didn't actually race!!!

[Jesper OH]

Speaking of Saabs, here's two raced by Swede Rolf Uhr
1987 900 Turbo:
http://www.teambild.se/arkiv/details...24&mode=search
1988 9000 Turbo:
http://www.teambild.se/arkiv/details...83&mode=search

I know there were plans to race a 900 T in the 1985 DTM, Rallye Racing even bringing a picture, but from the race results it never started a race. I think that a Finnish 900 T was raced in the late 1980's but that might rather have been a Turbo cup car.
The 9000 is the only one of it's kind I have ever heard of.

Jesper

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

New Zealand is a good place to look for some of the more unusual Group A cars.

The first couple of years of Group A racing in New Zealand (1984-86) was the time period when I first became really interested in motor-racing, at the ripe old age of 10.
So, please forgive me if my recollection of some of these cars isn't as strong as it could be. I was young and impressionable. I live in Australia these days, but still fondly remember those early years of Group A racing in my native New Zealand.
Also, unfortunately I can't provide any pictures. I have only a few of the 1985 Nissan Mobil series in a couple of books I have here. The rest would be in period magazines - but they are in storage in NZ and I have no access to them.

Except for the annual Nissan Mobil 500 series, I have little knowledge of New Zealand touring car racing of the Group A period, so info like this is always welcome.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

The Ford Falcon XE (and even an older XD) have already been mention in this thead: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...46#post2366946

It has been around the block that Dick Johnson was looking into produce a prototype Falcon for eventual Group A homologation around the Australian switch to the international class in 1985. As apparently no V8 was in production at the time, a six-cylinder Turbo version was considered, but never came of the ground. Much later – probably 1991/1992 – Dick Johnson was looking into the possibilities of the yet to be homologated Ford Escort RS Cosworth, in a way of beating “Godzilla”, but with the advent of the new 5 liter V8 supercars for 1993 it came to nothing.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

There were two Holden Commodore VH V8s in the 1984 Benson & Hedges endurance series. These were Group 1 production cars that had raced in the previous season and were upgraded a bit. The ran on slicks and would have had engine and suspension upgrades. However, they were probably quite stock. Others from New Zealand may have more information.
The quickest of the two cars was the gold coloured Denny Hulme/Ray Smith car that was sponsored by the Auckland Coin & Bullion Exchange. This was the car that won the 1983 Pukekohe 6-hour race in Group 1 trim and it provided the strongest challenge to the two BMW 634CSi racers driven in the 1984 series by Neville Crichton/Wayne Wilkinson and Kent Baigent/Neal Lowe.
The second car was a black VH driven by Bruce Fowler and Kirk Stoneman. This may have been the ex-Crichton/Wilkinson car from the 1983 B&H series. This car finished third in the 1984 Pukekohe 6-hour behind the two BMWs.
I think at least one of the cars also contested the 1984/85 New Zealand Touring Car Championship, but neither raced in the Nissan-Sport series at Wellington and Pukekohe in early 1985.
As far as I know, these were the only two VH Commodores to race in something close to Group A trim. The VH was more familiar to Australian race-goers in Group C trim and had raced in NZ for a couple of seasons in NZ Group 1 production trim.

Just checked up on the homologation of the Group A Holden Commodore VK V8 #A5282, which brought another surprise. Despite a lot of running with the Commodore during the 1985 Australia Group A season, the car was only homologated by FIA on January 1986! I have read a few passages were homologation problems were hinted at during ‘85, but nothing like the car wasn’t even properly homologated. Can anyone explain this?

Jesper

[Jesper OH]

Part 2

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

Another very interesting car was the Nissan 300ZX Turbo. Leo Leonard and Garry Sprague ran the car in the first round of the 1984 Benson & Hedges series at Manfield and if I remember correctly, it finished 3rd. The car ran into eligibility problems however (I'm pretty sure that 300ZX was never officially homologated in either turbo or non-turbo form by the FIA) and didn't race in the next two races. Leonard switched to the older Falcon XD for the rest of the season. I think the 300ZX Turbo reappeared at the Wigram round of the 1984/85 NZ Touring Car Championship in Sprague's hands.
Maybe someone from NZ who has period magazines (such as NZ Motoring News which I have never been able to acquire) has some pictures of both the Commodore VHs and the 300ZX?

Another surprise turned up here regarding homologation of the Nissan Z-cars. At least both the 2+2 versions of the 260Z and 280Z (unsure of what a “240 K GT H(L)GC110” exactly is, but also homologated) was homologated as FIA Group 1 cars and the 280Z was even transferred to Group A! The 300ZX Turbo was homologated as an FIA Group B car #B266 sometime in 1984 though.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

Other threads have mentioned the Nissan Bluebird Turbo Coupe run by Graham Goode in the BTCC. However, a Nissan Bluebird Turbo 4-door saloon appeared on a number of occasions in the first couple of Group A seasons in New Zealand. I believe the car was owned by Don Halliday and I think he shared it with Reg Cook in the 1985 Wellington street race.
In 1986 he shared it in the Nissan Mobil 500 at Wellington with Garry Croft and they won Division 2 (1601-2500cc) and finished 14th outright (results here: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...ellington.html)
I am sure this car continued to race on and off for several more seasons.

The car was firstly homologated as a FIA Group 1 car in November 1980 (#A5811) and at some stage transferred to Group A, while a proper Group A homologation was granted for February 1984 (#A5197) with an expiry date at the end of 1988. Since I only have a list of homologation numbers and the most basic details of the models therein, I must assume there were no distinction between the 2 door coupe or the 4 door sedan – Volvos could be run as both 2 and 4 door sedans likewise, although the overall body dimensions were exactly the same for the Volvo but likely not on the Bluebird.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

In late 1986, Toyota Team New Zealand prepared two FWD Toyota Celica GT ST160s, which ran against the BMW 325is in the 1601-2500cc Division 2. I don't think they had much success. Drivers included Dave Barrow, Mark Jennings and others. If there had been a 1601-200cc class the Celica may have been more successful. The cars were raced for a couple of seasons.
As far as I know, the non-turbo FWD Celica didn't race anywhere else (unless some raced in Japan?).

A Trust (those of Group C Porsche 956/962C fame?) Celica ST162 raced in five of six rounds of the Japanese series. With Keiichi Suzuki/Ryusaku Hitomi as drivers they scored two early class wins, but recorded three DNFs for the remainder of the season. The class victories were achieved before any BMW M3 challenged.
I have seen a picture from the Wellington 500 1987/8/9(?) where you seen the car as back grounds in the pits, while the main picture surrounds the car either on the front of pit lane or on the main straight. Probably a flickr entry, but I’m pretty sure this is a three door coupe, similar to the World Rally Cars of it’s time.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

Another car that raced in the first few years was the Fiat Ritmo Abarth 130TC. Garry Pederson and Dave McMillan ran one in the 1984/85 season and another appeared in the hands of Bob Barry and Chris Heyer in the 1986 Nissan Mobil 500.
I can't find any evidence of these Fiats competing in European Touring Car Racing. Can anyone confirm this?

[QUOTE=collector]In the old Deutsche Produktionswagenmeisterschaft started Fiat Abarth 130 TC. It was for sale at ebay some months ago:
ebay

Would this eBay car be the 1985 mount of Herbert Schürg – considering the current paint scheme is as it was back then. Hill climb photos of the similar car of Heinz Vöhringer suggest a rather ordinary silver livery. Since I can’t link directly, look for the third picture from above:
http://www.euromontagna.com/gallery....race=200&lng=1
Then seeing both cars have a huge Hörmann sun screen, they might be the same after all. Albert Unkmeier had a third 130 TC, according to the results of Mainz-Finthen, since all three named drivers and their cars appear in the results.
For the opening round of the Italian championship 1990 four 130 TCs appeared in the A5 category. Through the season nine different drivers raced the 130 TC, but some might have shared the same car over the year.
As for ETCC entries, they are indeed slim, from current Frank de Jong knowledge 1985 had one entry:
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...5%20Monza.html
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...5%20Class.html

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

In Australia, we had the Nissan Gazelle (same as the Japanese Silvia), which was driven at various times by Mark Skaife and John Giddings.

Ross Burbidge took over for 1988, but left the 2 litre championship mid season. David Sala was driving the car at the Sandown 500 in September and was definitely the entrant – but not always the driver – during 1989. From some of Malscars pictures the car was running in Sports Sedan races by this time as well.
As has already been mentioned Hermann Behrens ran a Silvia in the DPM/DTM 1985-1986. I have seen an article about the Behrens Silvia in early 1984 – seemingly ready for racing – but homologation from Japan was not, and so Behrens ran it in Group H/Sports Sedan instead. The car was rather chanceless in those early DPM/DTM days, but he might have been running the car in the German Trophy series, that had a 1601-2000 cc class.
Japan had at least one car running during the same 1985-1986 period. With little competition, the Silvia won 4 from 5 division 2 (1601-2500 cc) victories during the 1985 season, mainly beating VW Golf and Sciroccos and a lonely Mazda RX-7.
For 1986 a completely different set of drivers contested the championship with Canon sponsorship, winning their class during the first two races, but gradually disappearing mid season.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

Also, in Australia was the Audi 5+5 driven by Chris Heyer.

Recently I’ve learned that Chris Heyer was in fact Dutch, and that his former European VW/Audi connections helped a lot in racing this Audi and a Golf at one time. For some reason the Audi 80 sedan was never entered as such. FIA #5010 Audi 80 2.2 L was named after it’s American name 4000 for the 1983 Spa 24h race – this time as a 2 door opposed to the Heyer 4 door:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-050.jpg
And again in 1984:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-29-047.jpg

And just to follow up on the Audi GT Coupés of 1982 – technically both the sedan in 2 or 4 door version as well as the coupé were identical - . Peter Seikel and
Willi Bergmeister raced one each during the 1982 ETCC under some sort of Audi Sport patronage. By 1986 Danish rallycross driver Henrik Pilgaard had been racing his coupe in rallycross for a season, but used the opening round of the Danish Group A series to test his coupe.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

I have come across other numerous other more unusual Group A cars from the various Autosport and other motorsport articles and websites I've read over the yeas.
I remember a few Opel Monzas appearing in the first few years of Group A in Europe. Surely with proper development and in the right hands these could have been a success in the early years of Group A.

And according to this otherwise saddening article as late as 1989:
http://www.autosport.nl/actueel/news.php?id=8310
Didn’t even knew that Holland had a Group A championship by 1989! “From our correspondent” series of articles in Autosport the judgement were that the 1988 Group A series was likely to be the last …and probably should have been if a Monza could win the following year. From what I can gleam the linked to article says the car was build for the German Endurance championship at the Nordschleife and also raced in the DTM. Only DTM-racer of 1984 was Klaus-Emil Röckel fit the bill, so it must be his original mount, which he also raced during selected 1985 races.
Opel stepped a toe in the circuit racing waters during 1987-88, courtesy of Kissling Motorsport and driver Heinz-Friedrich Peil, before an attack in the 1989 DTM. I totally agree that the configurations of the Monza by early 1982 should at least have been the equal of the BMW 528i, but corporate politics and philosophy probably hindered any further development. After all Adam Opel AG was BIG in rally in those days.[QUOTE=brendonwood1]

Jesper

[brendonwood1]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

It has been around the block that Dick Johnson was looking into produce a prototype Falcon for eventual Group A homologation around the Australian switch to the international class in 1985. As apparently no V8 was in production at the time, a six-cylinder Turbo version was considered, but never came of the ground. Much later – probably 1991/1992 – Dick Johnson was looking into the possibilities of the yet to be homologated Ford Escort RS Cosworth, in a way of beating “Godzilla”, but with the advent of the new 5 liter V8 supercars for 1993 it came to nothing.

Ford Australia, with Johnson's help, got as far as building prototypes of the XF Turbo. However, for reasons previously stated in the other thread, they did not proceed.
In regards to Johnson investigating the possibilities of racing a Ford Escort RS Cosworth, this was reported in Auto Action not long after the car was announced. I think Johnson always planned to be racing a Falcon V8 again after the Sierra - but as the competitiveness of any Falcon was going to be down to the exact rules that CAMS chose for its Group A replacement, the Escort was being considered as an alternative. Of course CAMS went down the V8 Supercar path, and the Falcon was one of only two cars that could be competitive in the new catagory.
What always surprised me is that none of the Australian teams investigated the possibility of running a Sapphire RS Cosworth 4WD. This car was homologated in late 1990 (?) for rallying.
I can only guess that the reason the Sapphire 4WD was never raced in Group A circuit racing was that I doubt it could use exactly the same engine as the RS500. I believe the engines would have been subtely different to each other to suit the demands of greater low down torque in rallying. I guessing the Sapphire had a different turbo and other changes. I know the factory rally Sapphires had a lot less horsepower than the RS500 track cars.
However, I wonder if CAMS would have entertained a compromise and allowed the RS500's engine to be used in the Sapphire 4WD? Since the Sapphire would have weighed less than the GT-R and had similar power, the GT-R would have faced serious competition.
I know the Sapphire 4WD was raced in Group N circuit racing, particularly in Britain.

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Just checked up on the homologation of the Group A Holden Commodore VK V8 #A5282, which brought another surprise. Despite a lot of running with the Commodore during the 1985 Australia Group A season, the car was only homologated by FIA on January 1986! I have read a few passages were homologation problems were hinted at during ‘85, but nothing like the car wasn’t even properly homologated. Can anyone explain this?

Jesper

I can answer this one. When Group A raced was first introduced to Australia none of the local manufacturers had suitable cars that could homologated - mainly because they didn't build them in the required numbers. So, for the first two years of Group A racing in Australia, CAMS allowed the local homologation of Australian produced cars if just 1,000 cars had been built. This was to allow the local manufacturers enough time to build the 5,000 cars necessary for FIA homologation.
This was how the VK was homologated for the 1985 season. Holden had built less than 5,000 Commodore VK V8s by January 1985 (the VK was introduced in mid 1984), so it couldn't be homologated by the FIA. More than 1,000 had been built however, so it was homologated by CAMS under the special dispensation given to allow Australian manufacters to compete - however it could only race in Australia and New Zealand under this dispensation.
The 1985 car was based on the Commodore SL and initially it had a 5,044cc (308 cu in) V8 which placed it in the over 5,000cc class and meant it had to race at 1,400kg. With that much weight and only just over 300 bhp and a 4-speed gearbox to start with, its surprising that the Mobil Holden Dealer Team ever got it close to the ATCC front runners at all.
By August 1985, CAMS allowed local homologation of a small bore 4,980 cc (304 cu in) version of the Holden V8 engine and a 5-speed gearbox. This was just in time for Bathurst. The car immediately dropped down to 1,325 kg as it was now in the under 5,00cc class. I don't think they got much more power out of it at this stage, but somehow Brock nearly pulled off a podium and even a possible win at the 1985 Bathurst 1000.
By the end of 1985 Holden had produced more than 5,000 Commodore VK saloons fitted with the 4,980 cc V8 engine. It had also built 500 evolution Commodore VK Group A road cars, which had stronger roller rockers in the engine and much more power, plus the necessary front and rear wings for more downforce. The racing versions now had over 400 bhp.
The Commodore VK Group A made its debut at a round of the New Zealand Touring Car Championship held to support the 1986 New Zealand Grand Prix at Pukekohe. Graeme Bowkett's HDT built Sleepyhead backed car was upgraded to the evolution specs in time for the race, and grabbed pole position ahead of David Oxton in the ex-Rouse Sierra XR4Ti and then went on to win. Denny Hulme also ran the gold AC&B Commodore VK in evolution spec in the same race. Of course, later in the month, Brock & Moffat won the Wellington street race and John Harvey and Neal Lowe won the Pukekohe 500.

It is worth noting that if Ford Australia was only considering building 1,000 Falcon XF Turbos - so if the Falcon Turbo had eventuated it would have been homologated under the CAMS dispensation.
Also, at one stage Nissan Australia was apparantly giving consideration to homologating the locally built Nissan Pulsar ET Turbo (which used the 1.5 litre turbo engine from the EXA Turbo) under the same CAMS dispensation. If the Pulsar ET had been homolagated, I expect it would have given some competition to the Alfa GTV6s in the 2,500cc class.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

...What always surprised me is that none of the Australian teams investigated the possibility of running a Sapphire RS Cosworth 4WD. This car was homologated in late 1990 (?) for rallying.
I can only guess that the reason the Sapphire 4WD was never raced in Group A circuit racing was that I doubt it could use exactly the same engine as the RS500. I believe the engines would have been subtely different to each other to suit the demands of greater low down torque in rallying. I guessing the Sapphire had a different turbo and other changes. I know the factory rally Sapphires had a lot less horsepower than the RS500 track cars.
However, I wonder if CAMS would have entertained a compromise and allowed the RS500's engine to be used in the Sapphire 4WD? Since the Sapphire would have weighed less than the GT-R and had similar power, the GT-R would have faced serious competition.
I know the Sapphire 4WD was raced in Group N circuit racing, particularly in Britain...

The RS 500 was a complete 'Homologation Special' (only 500 produced) produced exactly with Group A Touring Car Racing in mind. The engine specification in particular was geared towards this with a huge turbo, stronger cylinder block casting, larger inlet & exhaust ports in the cylinderhead and the facility to run 8 injectors for example.
The Sapphire Cosworth 4x4 Group A Rally Car (minmum production 5000 vehicles) did not require these extreme modifications as rally regulations controlled the power output of the engines by using an air restrictor on the turbocharger inlet.
Therefore, unless the race regulations specifically allowed a change away from International Group A regulations, a Sapphire Cosworth would never have legally been able to produce anywhere near enough engine power.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

What always surprised me is that none of the Australian teams investigated the possibility of running a Sapphire RS Cosworth 4WD. This car was homologated in late 1990 (?) for rallying.
I can only guess that the reason the Sapphire 4WD was never raced in Group A circuit racing was that I doubt it could use exactly the same engine as the RS500. I believe the engines would have been subtely different to each other to suit the demands of greater low down torque in rallying. I guessing the Sapphire had a different turbo and other changes. I know the factory rally Sapphires had a lot less horsepower than the RS500 track cars.
However, I wonder if CAMS would have entertained a compromise and allowed the RS500's engine to be used in the Sapphire 4WD? Since the Sapphire would have weighed less than the GT-R and had similar power, the GT-R would have faced serious competition.
I know the Sapphire 4WD was raced in Group N circuit racing, particularly in Britain.

Yes, August 1990 was the date of homologation and around this time German Dieter Selzer raced a 4x4 in the Langstreckenpokal at the Nürburgring Nordschleife – from what I remember Wolf Racing was involved in this project but not fronting the team. Just learned that a similar car was around in the Italian A3 class by 1992 driven by Roda (sorry, no first name at hand). Swede Jan-Åke Söderqvist build a car for the 1992 Nordic Cup and the Swedish Championship with Stig Blomqvist driving. For the somewhat diminutive tracks up North a loose in power but more traction was obviously the attraction, but development of the BMW M3 at the time was beyond the 4x4 Sierra and the car and the series was soon faced out.
The rally world was by this time already applying to a maximum 300 bhp anyway, so no use of trying to push the envelope too much. Under steering was a problem with the Group N versions and probably was so with the above Group A cars. The road going 4x4 was about 50 kg heavier than the regular Sapphire and most of that gain was obviously sitting up front of the car. A Swiss Group A hill climb car made it to Danish Special Saloon Car early in this decade and the driver reported the same under steering problem, so much so that the he, Gunnar Larsen, rebuild the car with RWD only after the first season of use.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

I can answer this one. When Group A raced was first introduced to Australia none of the local manufacturers had suitable cars that could homologated - mainly because they didn't build them in the required numbers. So, for the first two years of Group A racing in Australia, CAMS allowed the local homologation of Australian produced cars if just 1,000 cars had been built. This was to allow the local manufacturers enough time to build the 5,000 cars necessary for FIA homologation.

The 1,000 car limit was mentioned around the time of the next generation VN Commodore homologated by FIA in April 1990. Still 500 evolutions had to be build but the economy at the time and a very limited market only saw some 300+ cars leave Melbourne, if my sources are correct.[/QUOTE]

The Audi 200 quattro was mentioned earlier and it did a few 1986 DTM races with Freddy Kotulinsky driving. Any factory connections were denied by Audi at the time, but I believe Kotulinsky was heavily involved with Audi. The later V8 was in fact based on the 200 (and 100) chassis, so if success was limited a few valuable lessons were obviously learned.

Jesper

[brendonwood1]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

The 1,000 car limit was mentioned around the time of the next generation VN Commodore homologated by FIA in April 1990. Still 500 evolutions had to be build but the economy at the time and a very limited market only saw some 300+ cars leave Melbourne, if my sources are correct.

Jesper

The VN would have been a different case. Holden would have easily built 5,000 basic VN V8s to qualify for FIA homologation. However, since they did not build all 500 evolution cars, I'm not sure that the VN Group A would have been homologated by the FIA. Once again CAMS accepted the car despite the fact the required numbers had not been built.
However by this time (1991), Australia was moving away from strict Group A regulations for the ATCC anyway - primarily in an attempt to stop the GT-R having things all its own way. The BMW M3 Evo Sport was allowed to run in full DTM spec for example.
Also, I don't think any VN Group A race cars ever raced outside of Australia or New Zealand anyway - unless one appeared in South East Asia at some point.

[johnh875]

Re the Group A Falcon, the V8 had been dropped from the range at the end of 1982, and the XE model replaced by the XF in early 1984. There are a few XE Falcons floating around with the 4.1 turbo - link

Al, if the Camaro was going to be raced in 1988, it would have had to run 1500kg at 5.7L compared with 1340kg at 5.0L, not an inconsiderable difference.

The VN Group A in 1991 was a victim of the recession - they were priced at $70k or over double the base Commodore SS V8. Sales of all expensive cars hit a brick wall at this time, let alone a hotrod extravagance like the Commodore.

Finally Jesper here is a Datsun 240K coupe / GC110 - this is the 1970's Skyline coupe, which saw the first version of the GT-R
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._GTX-E_001.jpg

[KA]

Looking at the pics on Racingsportscars, I get the impresion that quite a lot of the unusual cars seem to be a feature of the first few years of Group A- things like the Opel Monzas discussed earlier, but also Opel Kadetts and Asconas, Simcas, Minis etc. I'm wondering if some of these were a hangover from earlier Group 1 homologations transfered to Group A

Kadett GT/E, Brno 1982 & 83: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-13-027.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-12-038.jpg

Opel Ascona- Brno 1983
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-12-035.jpg

VW Scorocco Mk1- again Brno '82: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-13-061.jpg

Something else that struck me is that there are definite national differences in the Group A scene, particuarly between the UK and Europe and the Australia/NZ/Japan- examples are the Mustang- http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-023.jpg which was
pretty rare in Europe (I can only think of the CC Motorsport car, Seikel's car in '87 and the Zakspeed cars that ended up with Dick Johnson in Australia, whereas there were quite a few- Johnson, Don Smith, the Anderson's Pinepac cars etc- in Australia/NZ), similarly the Nissan Skylines (quite a few in Aus/NZ, very common in Japan almost unknown in Europe).

On the other hand, the Rover, which was fairly commonly campaigned in the UK with quite a few around Europe, but only ever a couple in Australia and one in Japan. There were even significant local differences in Europe- think how many Volvos were campaigned in Sweden and Germany, but it's a car never seen in the BTCC

[PZR]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Finally Jesper here is a Datsun 240K coupe / GC110 - this is the 1970's Skyline coupe, which saw the first version of the GT-R
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._GTX-E_001.jpg

No, the first Nissan Skyline 'GT-R' model was the four-door PGC10 model of 1969. The C10-series Skyline was the model series that preceded the C110-series, which was the base for the 'C111' 2000 GT-XE model variant in your linked picture ( taken at Nissan's Ginza showroom ).

GT-R anorak over and out

[chunterer]

Yeah that's right KA, some quite elderly cars were about early on but soon disappeared as newer homolgated cars arrived on the scene.

I guess there quite a few examples of 'what if's' as well. I mean several models that got entered never reached full potential for one reason or another (I.E. Bluebird Turbo, that big Merc 500)....

.......some I suspect never even made it to the track because the manufacturers didn't fancy homologating them but surely must've considered them at some point for circuit use (i'm thinking cars like the Rover 800 Turbo Vitesse, Volvo Bertone Coupe that followed the 240T, Fiesta RS1800, VW Corrado?, Saab 'Carlsson' Turbo's).......

.....or perhaps cars that didn't make the grade performance wise (Capri 2.8, Mk1 Astra GT/E, even the MK2 Scirocco for example).

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by KA

...Something else that struck me is that there are definite national differences in the Group A scene, particuarly between the UK and Europe and the Australia/NZ/Japan- examples are the Mustang- http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-023.jpg which was
pretty rare in Europe (I can only think of the CC Motorsport car, Seikel's car in '87 and the Zakspeed cars that ended up with Dick Johnson in Australia, whereas there were quite a few- Johnson, Don Smith, the Anderson's Pinepac cars etc- in Australia/NZ), similarly the Nissan Skylines (quite a few in Aus/NZ, very common in Japan almost unknown in Europe).

On the other hand, the Rover, which was fairly commonly campaigned in the UK with quite a few around Europe, but only ever a couple in Australia and one in Japan. There were even significant local differences in Europe- think how many Volvos were campaigned in Sweden and Germany, but it's a car never seen in the BTCC

One thing that may explain this is that (don't forget) the BTCC had an overally capacity limit to prevent large capacity engined cars to race (and presumably keep the competing cars to those usually seen on the UK roads)

[KA]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

One thing that may explain this is that (don't forget) the BTCC had an overally capacity limit to prevent large capacity engined cars to race (and presumably keep the competing cars to those usually seen on the UK roads)

Yes, I'd forgotten the capacity limit (3.6 wasn't it, conveniently for Rover... ) keeping out Mustangs, Camaros etc. The CC Mustang only ever ran in the ETCC as a result

When was it removed- possibly '87? I seem to remember some rumours of the Grice Commodore possibly taking in a couple of BTCC rounds- the GP support at least- during his European season, but not being able to because of the capacity limit, a problem that didn't exist when the same car was run by Linden/ADR for Mike O'Brien a year later...

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

Looking at the pics on Racingsportscars, I get the impresion that quite a lot of the unusual cars seem to be a feature of the first few years of Group A- things like the Opel Monzas discussed earlier, but also Opel Kadetts and Asconas, Simcas, Minis etc. I'm wondering if some of these were a hangover from earlier Group 1 homologations transfered to Group A

Kadett GT/E, Brno 1982 & 83: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-13-027.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-12-038.jpg

Opel Ascona- Brno 1983
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-12-035.jpg

VW Scorocco Mk1- again Brno '82: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-13-061.jpg

Most of those cars were indeed Group 1 transfers.
A5612 (Gr. 1) 1976.01.01 Opel Ascona-B 1900 – of which the i2000 was an evolution homologated in 1979 I believe
A5067 1982.10.01-1986.12.31 Opel Ascona-B i2000 – now properly homologated as a Group A car
Same story with the Kadett and Ford Escort RS2000 for that matter. There were a fair few German based Kadetts and Asconas in the early days of Group A, even making it into the very early DTM days. Check at the buttum of this link for a picture of Heinz-Otto Fritzsche, who’s brother was racing another Kadett the same day:
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...%20Sprint.html
Here’s a link to a Finnish article dated in 1986. Two Asconas racing in their last year of homologation, drivers being Eero Vesenterä and Jyrki Wegelius:
http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/Hm...86/Image5.html
A look at the results from the very first Group A ETCC race at Monza ’82 tells of three Kadetts and an Ascona, all crewed by Italian drivers. At later Italian ETCC races a few Escort Mk. 2s appear as well, so my earlier nomination of Ken Harrison might not really be so unique.
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...2%20Monza.html
..but this link does turn up two rare Group A cars; a Lancia Beta HPE and an Alfa Romeo Giulietta.

The first generation Sciroccos were rare as the second generation was already in production and at first seems to have been homologated as an evolution of the first generation Scirocco
A5734 (Gr. 1) 1979.01.01
A5175 1983.11.01-1997.12.31 is the 1.8 Mk. 2 or Typ 53B
RAS Sport ran a pair of car for Belgian VW Audi Club during the 1983 ETCC championship winning on a regular basis:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-060.jpg
But it seems that from 1984 and onwards the Golf GTI was the preferred VW racer. Still a few was raced in Germany and a pair of Golfs/Sciroccos made it to the Far East for the first season of Japanese Group A racing in 1985.
Here’s a link to a picture of a possible Finnish Mk. 1 Scirocco – look for the yellow car about 7th in the pack:
http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/Ah...hti1983_2.html

Jesper

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

.
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...2%20Monza.html
..but this link does turn up two rare Group A cars; a Lancia Beta HPE and an Alfa Romeo Giulietta.

There are a couple of Talbot Sunbeam Ti's in there as well- 17th o/a, car #52, Sistelli/Cordone, car #49, Mursia/Ragazzi, DNF and #51, Peroni/Vedovati; DNS

[Jesper OH]

One of them in 18th in qualifying and division 1 pole, beating a Golf GTI in the process!

Jesper

[racer69]

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

Also, in Australia was the Audi 5+5 driven by Chris Heyer.

Heyer's Audi had a good career, it had started life as a Group C car in 1982. Was converted to Group A specs in late-1984.

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

The VN would have been a different case. Holden would have easily built 5,000 basic VN V8s to qualify for FIA homologation. However, since they did not build all 500 evolution cars, I'm not sure that the VN Group A would have been homologated by the FIA. Once again CAMS accepted the car despite the fact the required numbers had not been built.
However by this time (1991), Australia was moving away from strict Group A regulations for the ATCC anyway - primarily in an attempt to stop the GT-R having things all its own way. The BMW M3 Evo Sport was allowed to run in full DTM spec for example.
Also, I don't think any VN Group A race cars ever raced outside of Australia or New Zealand anyway - unless one appeared in South East Asia at some point.

Group A was pretty dead by the time the VN Commodore started running in early 1991. It was unlikely anyone would run one in Germany or Japan. Plus the car was designed with building the 500 evolutions in mind.

It meant Holden stayed on the grid for the final years of GrpA in Australia, kept the grids up, it was kind of no-lose.

The car only won once though, at Amaroo in the hands of Peter Brock in the first heat of the 1992 ATCC, and by the end of the year none of the front-running Holden teams were using it, they had either gone back to the VL Walkinshaw (Perkins), or updated to the '93 spec VP's (HRT & Brock)

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by KA

Yes, I'd forgotten the capacity limit (3.6 wasn't it, conveniently for Rover... ) keeping out Mustangs, Camaros etc. The CC Mustang only ever ran in the ETCC as a result

When was it removed- possibly '87? I seem to remember some rumours of the Grice Commodore possibly taking in a couple of BTCC rounds- the GP support at least- during his European season, but not being able to because of the capacity limit, a problem that didn't exist when the same car was run by Linden/ADR for Mike O'Brien a year later...

Thinking about this further, wasn't the capacity raised (from somewhere just above 3 litres to allow nothing bigger than a Capri) to enable the Rover SD1 to compete first in Group One, then Group A?