What were Super Saloons made from?

[driftwood]

Reading this tread for the 1st time ( other threads on this topic are elsewhere) you must put things into prospective
in 1973 a man had a few quid a road car and wanted to make it better than the maker intended hence the special saloon and went racing
then he wanted to go 1 better and started to fit bespoke race partsengines gearboxes supension etc from the obsolete parts bin of lola march or broke a car for its parts and made a super loon

so we are now 3 years down the line circa 76 u are the brides maid never the bride in the series so what do you do throw a security van load of cash at making the biggest and best steel shell saloon car or take the cheaper route by an obsolete 2 litre sports car thats dropped in value by 200% and drop a body on it and have a turn key proven racecar and for a lot less than Vauxhall spent on building big/baby bertha type cars
so now yr a winner and yr rivals see the merit in doing the same thing -buy a sports car ( no design costs or major manufacturing or developement to be done) and fit a galss fibre body
so its now 1979 and we have a bunch of cars from different years
73/4 steel shelled special saloons and a few space frame cars built
1977 we have alloy tubbed sports cars with bodies fitted and now its 1979 and u have won the series afew times but recently finished 2nd and now wnat the next generation car to win again so you look at a single seater car and fit a body on it a su think its the next untapped car that is cheap to build and faster/better lighter than the 2 litre sports car
You win some races and the following year 2 more cars appear and now we have nearly 10 years of saloon car racing and the 4 evolution of cars running & thats life!!
Some call it progress take alook at any formula the car schange every 3 or 4 years 1 designer comes up with a new idea in aero package or suspension format or even chassis desigin or material construction
I dont hear you bleating about Chapman and ground effects or McLaren using carbon kevlar
Instead of condemeing what happened in the past appreciate what happend and why at the time
if you where not there go and talk to the guys who where active and you will have a better understanding

[Al Weyman]

Yes but you did not finish the last chapeter which maybe should go like this.

Because the spectator, the man in the street (and potential sponsors), could no longer relate these rebodied Formula cars to real cars, his saloon car or manufacturers saloon cars the championship slowly died a death as interest from spectators, sponsors and in the end the competitors drew to an end, RIP.

[davyboy]

You're right Al, that's precisely what happened. The Super saloon regs were always fairly free spirited and the end result was the consequence of the absence of keeping them in check. Though driftwood explains the stages the process evolved through, those transitions were often very painful. I have flakey memory of a major situation that happened in the Phoenix Park [1977/1978] when Vivian Candy showed up on the grid with the most amazing fibreglass bodied Imp. The race was made up mainly of steel bodied and semi-spaceframed cars - escorts, imps, minis etc... What happened ? On the Sunday in full public gaze, the entire grid refused to start the race unless Candy was excluded. I was only a kid at the time, but somebody [older ] may be able to recount the situation more accurately. At the end of the day this is what you get with loose regs.

[Dan Rear]

I think most series/categories have their day, then gradually die, thats life ! However the Superloons lasted from, about, 1974 to 1984 if you include their transformation into Donington GTs. I recall that while they became dominant in 'Special Saloons' from about 76 onwards, they became stronger while more 'ordinary' Spec saloons died into the early 80s. There was an effort in 83 to re-vitalise, ordinary Spec saloons, which worked for a year or 2, tho' Modsaloons stole most of these entrants.

IMHO, Superloons were brilliant, combining 'real' racing cars, with recognisable (at a push!) bodies. Wasn't the FIA Group 5 category supposed to end up like this ?

[allenbrown]

Hi Dan

What happened to the category after 1984? Two F5000s were turned into Donington GTs: the Chevron B30 and a Lola T400. All earlier reports of bodies being dropped onto F5000s were probably exaggerations, I think whole F5000 rear ends were used on Super Saloons (incl. a Leda and a Trojan) but no chassis AFAIK.

Allen

[driftwood]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Because the spectator, the man in the street (and potential sponsors), could no longer relate these rebodied Formula cars to real cars, his saloon car or manufacturers saloon cars the championship slowly died a death as interest from spectators, sponsors and in the end the competitors drew to an end, RIP

It had nowt to do with the man on the street and him relating to his road car!! Special saloons and Donington GT had good grids and LOTS of fans
If he wanted to " get in touch " with his street car he had Prod saloons and GpA touring cars plus numerous 1 make formulas to go and watch

Please get real if you wish to debate and be logical
Formulas grow and die due to various factors Promotion is the biggest factor and prize money helps
we once had
2 UK F3 c/ships-2 maybe 3 FF1600 series F/Atalantic and F5000 series
they all come and go for financial reasons - cars become too expensive to run due to the current economic climate or a major manufacter invents a similar series and throws $$ at it ( ie F vauxhall) & some series have similar rules and cars so people can switch to another and 1 category drops off

Modified saloons came along for those with steel shelled cars to race in taking some cars away Road going saloon car series started and classic and historic saloons where created all around the same in the mid 80`s

Historic motor racing came along where some of the saloon cars could then race as their "original self" in sports cars or single seater events which made sense to some owners who switched series or sold their cars

Another series starts that creates more interest ie Thunder saloons or Thundersports- look at the driver who competed in them and you will see some old superloon/Donington GT names
So already we have 3 logical reasons why some cars and drivers dropped out of wendy wools/Donington Gt events and thats without drivers changing category to Formula whatever or 1 make racing

There is not 1 reason why special saloons /Don GT racing died off
It ran for nearly 20 years with strength and today we have off shoots at Oulton park Pembrey Castle coombe Lydden albeit with open top sports cars and caterham type cars running as well as the "original" concept saloon cars

As for the spectators they LOVED the special saloons AND the Donington GT series flocking around the cars to see the innovations different body shapes engine cinfigurations form 1 litre Mini/Imp engines 1300-1500 BDA to f2 BDG BMW Hart 420R motor upto DFV type f1 & V8 F5000 engines

There are many cars in garages that raced years ago but it is not financially viable to restore them and run them other than for your own personal reasons

Many of the Hybrid Gt cars are now running as Formula 2/5000 cars and the chevrons B19 etc are racing in the orwell series

The other "Bitsa" cars that had a home made chassis with formula whatever running gear will have been broken up and sold off as spares to car owners who have the real car running and seek spares or even in some case the original historic suspension is back with its chassis and racing again

Elsewhere on "10tenfs" we had a thread about getting the saloon cars running again but i fear it will never happen except for the man who owns the famous car like Baby bertha or Daf 33 where you can possibly justify the expense in rebuilding the car for exhibition purposes
If it cost you £15-20k to rebuild the car you can go and buy an old BTCC GpA car for less££ and it will go just as fast ( if not quicker) around the track than the special saloons went

From reading the various threads on this site on special /Thunder/super saloon /Donington GT cars there are many people who loved the spectacle
so bring on some fotos to get duey eyed over

[Al Weyman]

Steady on Driftwood, I did'nt just say the man in the street I said the sponsor/manfacuturer, maybe that did not come over clearly and if thats the case then I appologise. The facts are that something indeed did stop development of the championships be it manufacturers like Vauxhall getting out or it may have even been the event of Turbo chargers and cars like the Cosworth RS500 which would probably beat Baby Bertha more or less as it came out the factory after a bit of re-chipping and tweaking. I do know and I am talking personally and I used to work as a spanner man in those days that I found the modified steel shell jobs a lot more interesting.

[driftwood]

Davy boy
the Candy Imp -it was not the special saloon car that caused the fuss i believe it was the livery & also consider the politics of the time!!
"Yer man" has made a mention on another thread on this point but im sure we will be
reminded of that incident
After all David Hall had a davrian Imp at Mondello and i never heard of the boys adjorning to the bar to drink the "black stuff" when they should have been racing on the black stuff cos yer man had the "wrong" type of car

Mr Brown
The B30 Purley car was used as true F5000 with BMW M1 body fitted driven by jeff wilson
the T400 was the other BMW M1 car of Mick Hill but i dont think it used all the T400 parts (certainly the tub and some suspension parts) both cars now running as single seater cars

There where a few chevron & march F2 cars used as esprits as mentioned on other threads a toleman tg280 with lancia 037 body from the factory & works march 822 esprit

heaps of march suspension GT 2 seater chassis cars 1 esprit with toleman tg280 suspension

The DFVW was possibly the 1st sports car saloon racer then the march chevron lola 2 litre sports car based skodas followed now all back running as historic sports cars

Mr Weyman
The steel shell saloon cars had their heyday in the early 70`s and then had a ressurection as Thundersaloons ( formally supersaloon concept with big arches big engines) & Mod saloons (Originally special saloons) in the early 80`s as well as classic and historic saloon car races for the mini Imp anglia brigade cars that did not fit into the other categories
I may have been knee high to a grasshopper when Supersaloons started and Gerry was "the man" in special saloons but i had 1st hand experience of all the special saloon cum GT car series from 74-92 as my father raced both steel and space frame saloon and GT cars and i have raced classic/historic saloons

The bottom line is they where all GREAT in their day from the cars to the drivers and the races
Now we have 1 make formula saloon and single seater racing (boring) so where do you go to find a series that lets the owner driver become an" innovator or a designer" and build a car that doesnt look like yr wifes kitchen sink was used to make the body in your garden shed with a 787 cc engine and yr dads wheel barrow as the chassis -( im not having a pop at any formula here chaps but u know what i mean) i guess Britcar/Britsports will be the next best thing but gee look at the $$ some are spending
Look at BTCC cost when a manufacturer gets involved or DTM!!

[Al Weyman]

You could do worse that try TRC class A. You get the added bonus of 2 races at a reduced fee and the chance to whop me in my Class B V8 car:-)

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Davy boy
the Candy Imp -it was not the special saloon car that caused the fuss i believe it was the livery & also consider the politics of the time!!
"Yer man" has made a mention on another thread on this point but im sure we will be
reminded of that incident
After all David Hall had a davrian Imp at Mondello and i never heard of the boys adjorning to the bar to drink the "black stuff" when they should have been racing on the black stuff cos yer man had the "wrong" type of car

Really ? You mean the Marlboro/Captain-American's logo ? Is that what it was ? Eddie Jordan's Atlantic had the same livery too. I vaguely remember being at the circuit at the time as a very young kid and being told that Candy did a banzai lap in qualifying that would have made the race a non-contest and the Irish modsaloon boys put their toys on their trailers. I must have been given the wrong end of the stick at the time. Thanks for putting me right.

[driftwood]

Davy boy
i cant see the lads going home cos they where going to get their butts whipped-if that was the case 95% of grids would go home after practise session is finished!!
Phoenix park is practically the irish GP event so they would stay

im sure there is a comment somewhere on this site about the car and the livery i may be wrong ( it wont be the 1st time!!) & i think the usa/irish thing was the root that was mentioned with the livery
any more irish lads out there that can help??

[davyboy]

Ya it would be interesting to find out. David Hall did have some incredible imps too... I thought he made some of them himself in Kildare. 'Hallspeed Imps' they were called. He also produced an incredible Suzuki in the 1980s though I don't know if it was ever raced. It wasn't single seater based, but an amazingly well engineered piece of space-framed kit.

[driftwood]

I know david hall had 1220 cc engines
1 imp was the std shell with glass panels bodywork he then had either a dvarian Imp or used the body as it was similar to the wallinger davrian imp shape i beleive he still has the car

there is aguy over here racing Imps and his father raced Imps back in Ireland and i believe he races his dads old car
I will have to ask him if he recalls the Candy Imp/livery incident

dont make me look thru my old AS to find the article!!

[davyboy]

I think you're gonna have to dig out that AS article to finally put this to bed. You can't trust people's memories

Hall was one of many 'mom-and-pop' engineers who when you think of it, managed amazing feats in race car development from their garages. Bringing this back to the core of the thread, these people were the innovation backbone that kept the spirit of modified and super saloons and later silhoutte GTs thriving for quite some time. Not only that, but because they were all different, it was great for spectators, particularly those of an engineering mindset [like me], to walk around the paddock and look at how they were put together.

[col rooney]

As the son of dan rooney who raced a mod saloon in ireland at the time of the race in question i know exactly why the drivers refused to race against the candy imp and the livery had nothing to do with it.
My dad was one of the drivers to leave his imp on the grid that day and the reason was that the race for modified saloons and the imp that vivian candy was racing was a special saloon full fiberglass and did not comply to the regs which stated that cars should be based on production cars and retain the floor and front bulkhead .
I now race my dad,s car at lydden hill so if there is any semi space frame cars out there and would like to race with us please have a look at semsec

thanks colin

[davyboy]

Hey Colin,

Welcome to 10-10ths, its great to have you on board.

Thanks for clearing up the Candy Imp thing... that makes a lot more sense and fits to what I vaguely remember happening back then.

I raced against your dad in the Irish GT championship in 1989. I had a 1340cc modsports MG Midget that I took out for a couple of rounds that year, but it was useless against your dad's Imp and Richard Baird's Stilletto. I almost bought Richard's Stilletto at the end of the year, but my career moved me to the UK in 1990 and put an end to that.

Its great that you've got your dad's car back out again... and over here too. So many of those cars got broken [including my Midget] and I think Nigel Burgess' Imp. Is it in the same livery as it was back then ? Tell me when you're taking it out... move love to see it again.

Sorry to everyone else for driving off the fairway here.

[col rooney]

Hi davyboy
Yes the car is still in the same colours and i also race with the number 14 which my dad had for years i will be racing at lydden hill on the 13th may if you can make it it would be nice to meet you

[MONDELLO MAN]

The Candy Imp was ex David Hall , and yes the problem was not the logo , but the regulations . Vivian so;d the car to another racer and it died in a garage fire in Dublin . David Hall did run his Suzuki, but it had handling problems , and he shelved the project , it was I recall based on a Ralt RT1 chassis .

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by col rooney

Hi davyboy
Yes the car is still in the same colours and i also race with the number 14 which my dad had for years i will be racing at lydden hill on the 13th may if you can make it it would be nice to meet you

Colin, I've got some pictures of the car from the 1980s and will try and dig them out and scan them for you. I'll try and see if I can get down there on 13.05.2006.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MONDELLO MAN

The Candy Imp was ex David Hall , and yes the problem was not the logo , but the regulations . Vivian so;d the car to another racer and it died in a garage fire in Dublin . David Hall did run his Suzuki, but it had handling problems , and he shelved the project , it was I recall based on a Ralt RT1 chassis .

Cheers for that Eddie. So did David build that Imp from scratch ? Did he race it himself at any stage or was it built for Candy ? Interesting too that he managed to get the Suzuki out... I didn't know that.

Again, sorry to Allen and everyone else... the Irish have hijacked this thread

[MONDELLO MAN]

The bodyshell was created in the uk , yes he raced it and it was the business , The Suzuki did appear at the Park , and it proved too challenging to drive .

[col rooney]

Hi yes the davrian imp that dave hall had was made in the uk along with some input from john holmewood from kent who raced imp with great success. The suzuki sc100 was built by rob mason as far as i know there was 2 cars made 1 is now raced at lydden with a hyabusa engine in the middle to back of the car as for dave hall,s suzuki it is somewhere in uk but not sure who has it .I think the best person to ask about the hall suzuki is John Woods of Gemini engineering

[driftwood]

Davrian Imps
from memory i recall about 4 made
1st was John Homewoods car
I think Jim McGaughy raced 1 in scotland
David Halls car and the other car escapes me at present
the wallinger Imps had similar bodywork plus Rawlson made space frame with the davrian Imp shape fitted
Suzuki sc100
John Schneider had 1 car (1984/5 ish 1 litre motor no gearbox)
as did Alan Humberstone ( i think his car is the Lydden car) and that appears to have ralt uprights on it but it has the hewland gbox and bike gbox fitted so a possible 36 gears

1 Davrian Imp was for sale recently in N Ireland car sold to EEC!!

[big andy]

hi
i race against a sc100 in the nsscc its owend by neil claxton its 10in longer than the standard car its based on a f3 car with a 1300cc ford engine ,its stamped on the front rail with the makers name and the date 1979, ive had some really good races with this car but its usually the back im looking at

[tweenster]

My first post on this forum, so please allow me a trip down memory lane, and I apologise if I have hijacked this thread. Firstly, I've really enjoyed seeing the photos on this forum of what I believe was a great era of saloon car racing, although I was young (perhaps 9 or 10 so this would be 1972-1974-ish) and totally spellbound by the speed and noise.

My step-father was an also-ran at the back of the grid driving a 1071cc mini special saloon but it meant I got in the paddock and could have a good look around at the like of Whiting's Mk 1 Escort, the DFVW (which my mother called the Purple People Eater - wasn't it originally blue and purple rather than predominantly white that the various photos I have seen on forums recently?) etc. I was at Brands the day that Hawker destroyed the DFVW, bouncing it off the barriers on both sides of the main straight. We were on South Bank and just saw debris flying through the air. I went and had a look at the leftovers in the paddock afterwards and remember being almost overpowered by the fumes - what were they using and for what purpose?

John Homewood was the star in the small capacity class with his Imp, and Whiting, Hawker and Gerry Marshall (of course) were the stars in the big class. I wasn't there the day Whiting totalled his Mk 1 on Bottom Straight as he and Marshall(?) went either side of a backmarker who moved over on Whiting and stuck him in the wall - a very big shunt according to the write-up in MN. I do remember Ginger Marshall coming onto the scene with his Mini Estate but my step-father then changed discipline to sprints at Goodwood (where an old boy (Wally Pratt?) did wonders in an old Fiat 500 - for some strange reason this also fascinated me). And it was here that he let me sit inside the car for a lap of the track (sat on the floor hanging on to the roll cage!) and experienced just how much grip slicks can develop - truly awesome for a lad of 11 or so!

On the subject of whether dropping bodyshells onto F3/F5000/whatever chassis spoilt the racing, well, maybe. But they fascinated me as a youngster. The DFVW had an engine from an F1 car - how fantastic was that! And a Skoda was winning races for goodness sake!

But Nick Whiting was my childhood hero, especially when he was in the 2-litre Mk 1 mixing it with the Big Bangers. Great pictures.

Apologies again if I have led this off-topic.