[DTM] DTM 2020

[GusGasfuss]

I am sure, Berger can convince 1-2 japanese cars for some guest starts within the season. At least with some financial help...as they want to market these cars sooner or later, it would be good to show performance abroad.


I also don't rule out, the HWA-build AMs will start with different disguise later in the season. I don't see them discarded and put to pieces.

Maybe HWA needs to finds someone, who pays for having his Name on the grid...like Red Bull named their engine like a chronometre.


In general it is not easy to run a series above TCR. Some manufacturers don't have suitable base models; some do only small cars, some only sports cars. And of course not every brand competes with BMW and Audi on the market etc.

On the other hand, most sports car brands have already competing in GT3, and maybe don't need another factory racing series for that.



As TCR having compact class cars, i would like to see still a series for midsize sedans, like it was in 90s, BMW M3 and Mercedes 190E etc.

[chunterer]

I also believe there is a place for bigger saloons/coupe cars to run to TCR/GT3 type regs.

Maybe that would be a cost effective and logical way forward for Berger's DTM?

Rebody the R8 GT3 chassis with an A4 or A6 shell? Porsche 911 with a Panamera body, Alfa Guilia shell on 488 running gear?

Nissan could just run the GTR as it is!

[Juntos]

It is all about money. Within certain limits, 99% of all problems can be solved by money. If Berger finds the cash the AM cars run by HWA will be back. If not, we will have 14 car grids and the collapse of the series.

[Matt K]

Who knows if HWA and R-Motorsport don't end up in court as HWA claims because of R-Motorsport they will lose millions of euro (double-digit numbers) so the story hasn't finished.

And it's not such black or white, there is a possibility of a bigger grid than 14 cars even without Astons. Customer BMW (BMWs?), both Audi and BMW may field two more factory cars each, there are possibilites of Honda and/or Toyota joining. So it's not the collapse of the series, nevertheless there are dark clouds over it and Berger has to find solutions as quickly as possible.

[Csaba]

Aberdein confirmed at BMW. So basically the certain seats are filled, and we are waiting for the possible BMW customer, and/or Aston, Honda, Toyota, who knows...

https://www.touringcartimes.com/2020...d-2020-season/

[BertMk2]

Interesting:

https://www.autosport.com/dtm/news/1...ed-on-thursday

Robert Kubica in a privateer BMW - I did wonder if he'd missed out once Aberdein was announced but it looks like his sponsors have got the cash together to run him as a privateer. Good to see another car entered (and the possibility of another privateer BMW alongside Kubica in a two car team). Just need to get those Astons back now and we'll be getting on for a decent grid.

[kurski]

Robert Kubica confirmed for DTM debut with BMW and ART Grand Prix.

[GusGasfuss]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Interesting:

https://www.autosport.com/dtm/news/1...ed-on-thursday

Robert Kubica in a privateer BMW - I did wonder if he'd missed out once Aberdein was announced but it looks like his sponsors have got the cash together to run him as a privateer. Good to see another car entered (and the possibility of another privateer BMW alongside Kubica in a two car team). Just need to get those Astons back now and we'll be getting on for a decent grid.

I believe, it needed to be a privateer entry, as BMW has already close connections (and sponsorship) with Shell.

So at least they need to name it private entry. Not sure, if this is not a full factory support (to not leave Kubica with bad results).

[Matt K]

Great to see Kubica in the DTM, I'm really curious how he fares. It's a good addition for the whole series. However, I'm a bit disappointed that it seems Kubica will be a sole ART driver. I also wonder what went wrong in Fach's case. They had everything sorted to enter a two-car customer team.

[JD Media]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Great to see Kubica in the DTM, I'm really curious how he fares. It's a good addition for the whole series. However, I'm a bit disappointed that it seems Kubica will be a sole ART driver. I also wonder what went wrong in Fach's case. They had everything sorted to enter a two-car customer team.

They should add a second car for Hulkenberg

[Matt K]

Would be a nice addition, however, I'd rather see someone young and talented instead of yet another ex-Formula 1 veteran. Nevertheless, it won't happen as ART isn't fielding the second car and chances of another customer team are about 0%

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Would be a nice addition, however, I'd rather see someone young and talented instead of yet another ex-Formula 1 veteran. Nevertheless, it won't happen as ART isn't fielding the second car and chances of another customer team are about 0%

Do you mean we are going to have a 15-car grid?

[Matt K]

I'm afraid so. HWA and Berger are allegedly still in talks about Astons (one or two as it was stated) and there's this Honda/Toyota thing but given there's very little time to Zolder, it would be a miracle if either Aston or any of these Japanese (maybe both) manufacturers appeared on start... I remain hopeful but I start thinking a 15-car grid becomes more and more realistic unfortunately.

[Juntos]

Audi is starting to pack. They're guilty of giving DTM people more chances than they deserve.

Source: https://www.autosport.com/dtm/news/1...-dtm-questions

[Matt K]

If Audi leaves, it's the end of DTM unfortunately
Although Berger seems more optimistic, both in terms of Audi's future and DTM's future as well. Dieter Gass recently stated he's very much into DTM and they will try to secure the championship's future.

[W2Motorsport]

I think the answer for both DTM and even V8SC is just going to be as a sort of spec series. Perhaps not full on dictating exactly what you can run, but putting in place a set of strict rules that the teams can work around. I think DTM is too much of niche to work as a customer racing program like GT does, so I think the best option will be to have a few companies to choose from for the chassis, and a few engine options, with no association from manufacturers. You can skin the car however you want, as a Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Chevrolet, Ford, it does not really matter as the engine and chassis options would be the same for all. This works really well for TA2 which is a very fast growing series, the cars look great, and the racing is very good, and the costs are very low. A DTM program with similar ideals would be more expensive than that of course, but much less expensive than current DTM. If they can't begin to attract the Asian manufacturers I'm not sure what other options they will have going forward.

I attached some pictures of TA2 cars for those who have not seen them. There are 2 or 3 chassis makers, and I believe all the cars are moving to a spec GM LS engine option. Total cost for a race ready car is about $130k. If they can make this thing for that price then I'm sure they could build some pretty mean cars comparable, or faster than a DTM car for $500k or so which would be a huge price cut over the existing costs.

Just a thought, I love this series so I hope they figure something out as there isn't much else like it.

[GusGasfuss]

I don't see a reason, why some manufacturer should like to hang his badge on a silhouette series car, with internals from a completely other brand...


I think, DTM needs a bit less tehnolgy, but still the technology of the brand it should represent.


I am still convinced, a concept like Superstars from Italy would be a good idea.

At least there should be a touring car class above TCR (i mean touring cars like BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, VW Passat, etc.)

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by GusGasfuss

At least there should be a touring car class above TCR (i mean touring cars like BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, VW Passat, etc.)

No idea about the techinal specs, I suspect they aren't that quick, but the Chinese touring cars (CTCC) always looked pretty good to me, and wouldn't be far off A4 size. China is a very different market though!

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by GusGasfuss

At least there should be a touring car class above TCR (i mean touring cars like BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, VW Passat, etc.)

thats btcc

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by GusGasfuss

I don't see a reason, why some manufacturer should like to hang his badge on a silhouette series car, with internals from a completely other brand...


I think, DTM needs a bit less tehnolgy, but still the technology of the brand it should represent.


I am still convinced, a concept like Superstars from Italy would be a good idea.

At least there should be a touring car class above TCR (i mean touring cars like BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, VW Passat, etc.)

As with TA2, there probably wouldn't be any manufacturer involvement. Most of the cars are just whatever make the driver thinks looks better as the body is interchangeable. I think whatever happens manufacturer involvement is the problem for almost every series it impacts. Look at WRX, WEC, DTM, V8SC all struggling for the same reason, manufacturers pulling out. The two types of ICE series that are having great success right now are customer racing (GT3, GT4, TCR aside from WTCR which is manufacturer by proxy) and series that are not associated with manufacturers at all. Usually the only examples of those types of series are lower level such as the aforementioned TA2, LMP2 and LMP3, all types of single seaters, etc.

Personally I just don't see how the DTM series can continue on costing what it does without manufacturers. Some drastic changes would need to be made. Either keep a similar level of performance that DTM enjoys now with a spec non-manufacturer involved program with lower costs, or drastically reduce the performance, so that the costs are more palatable for manufacturers and privateers.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by W2Motorsport

As with TA2, there probably wouldn't be any manufacturer involvement. Most of the cars are just whatever make the driver thinks looks better as the body is interchangeable. I think whatever happens manufacturer involvement is the problem for almost every series it impacts. Look at WRX, WEC, DTM, V8SC all struggling for the same reason, manufacturers pulling out. The two types of ICE series that are having great success right now are customer racing (GT3, GT4, TCR aside from WTCR which is manufacturer by proxy) and series that are not associated with manufacturers at all. Usually the only examples of those types of series are lower level such as the aforementioned TA2, LMP2 and LMP3, all types of single seaters, etc.

Personally I just don't see how the DTM series can continue on costing what it does without manufacturers. Some drastic changes would need to be made. Either keep a similar level of performance that DTM enjoys now with a spec non-manufacturer involved program with lower costs, or drastically reduce the performance, so that the costs are more palatable for manufacturers and privateers.

Thanks,
Jeff.

What you're suggesting sounds a lot like Superstars (as mentioned by GusGasfuss), the old V8 Star series or the "Solution F" cars used by STCC for a few years. All of those are dead - so that suggests that something isn't right with that idea (although to be fair DTM was running as well - so maybe without DTM in its current form maybe one of those concepts would work).

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

What you're suggesting sounds a lot like Superstars (as mentioned by GusGasfuss), the old V8 Star series or the "Solution F" cars used by STCC for a few years. All of those are dead - so that suggests that something isn't right with that idea (although to be fair DTM was running as well - so maybe without DTM in its current form maybe one of those concepts would work).

The Solution F cars were not quite as fast as a GT3 car even, so while the concept is similar the performance of a spec DTM car could far surpass solution F (in cost as well of course). My thought would be to have a spec series as suggested that could match the current DTM cars in terms of lap time and speed. You would continue controlling costs simply by keeping the rules the same and eliminating R&D costs from the budgets of the teams.

Additionally an idea like this could also be an avenue to have a transition period where you can continue to use the existing cars as well. It could first be introduced as a spec option to run alongside BMW and Audi cars.

Of course I'm no expert on the matter, these are just my thoughts or opinions for a fix. Ideally someone would find a way to continue the series as is, because the cars are phenomenal.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Bcarr6]

wrong thread

[Matt K]

In the recent interview, Gerhard Berger ruled out the possibility of Astons returning to the grid. He says it's theoretically possible for HWA to use the cars but money is a problem and HWA can't put everything together in such a short time. There is a possibility for Audi and BMW to use their test vehicles to enlarge the grid and as far as I understand it, the talks are ongoing.
For a longer-term plan, there are discussions with Japanese manufacturers.
Berger also claims there are some 'exciting things' that will be added to the championship this year.

[GusGasfuss]

Even if the Astons don't run this year, it could be possible to use them as a base for a 2021 entry of any given manufacturer. Could be the easiest and cheapest way, to create such an entry.



Maybe 2020 is a transition season, but maybe 2021 could be ok, if some manufacturer will move in.
4 manufacturers are best, but 3 would be ok too.