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Old 19 Sep 2005, 18:44 (Ref:1411591)   #1
Bleu
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Bleu should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBleu should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Red flag rules

Well, starting the thread so you can post opinions on the rules.

At Motegi, Thomas Lüthi, riding 2nd at that time, crashed and his bike was rode over by Sergio Gadea. The race was red-flagged.

As the rules say, results were taken from the previous lap so Lüthi and Gadea could keep their positions.

Harald Bartol said that he is unhappy with the rules in these circumstances. Of course he might think of his own rider's advantage here, but he thinks it is unfair that rider who causes red flag can keep his position. Same thing happened at Sachsenring earlier, but there it was only question of minor placings, I didn't check but Poggiali was somewhere between 7th and 9th when he crashed.

I understand that results are taken from the previous lap but I think it would be fair solution to exclude riders who caused the red flag. So in Motegi Faubel had been 2nd and Koyama 3rd. What do you think?
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 19:12 (Ref:1411623)   #2
Dani Filth
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Melandri i think won a race after it was red flaged .. in similar fashion .
I think the rules are ok . the red lap cannot be completed by everybody .. they guys from behind might need to stop so that marshals can take care of the rider or clear the track .
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 19:34 (Ref:1411641)   #3
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Obviously you don't see it at the top levels of motorsport, but there are some racing classes in the clubmans, bikes and cars, that have a rule that although the results are counted back one lap, the individual that caused the red flag is excluded.

I'm sure there are good reasons why this hasn't been implemented in the higher levels of the sport, but it's interesting to note that it's been done.
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 20:17 (Ref:1411674)   #4
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
very interesting .. . thanks for clearing this out EP
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 20:24 (Ref:1411687)   #5
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
A simpler way to do this would be to simply take the results at the end of the previous lap, but dock a lap for any rider who isn't running. This situation happened in F1 Brazil 2003 as well, which created a lot of confusion, and a solution like that would have produced a much fairer outcome.
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 20:34 (Ref:1411699)   #6
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
is ambigous . isnt running when the flag is shown ??. can fall after the flag.. or can be taken out . that's a bit unfair ..

i see it either the way it is in MotoGp npw . or as EP said it's also used . as in only the causing driver/rider being penalised
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Old 20 Sep 2005, 02:43 (Ref:1411883)   #7
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Hazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Well I mean it's a bit of a conflict isn't it? Obviously the rules would have to be so that if it started bucketing down and I fell off while leading in the misrable conditions I'd still win, but if it was dry and I ko'd myself in a crash blocking the track then obviously I shouldn't win as i'd DNF'd and caused the accident.
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Old 20 Sep 2005, 06:48 (Ref:1411939)   #8
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VTR_Beefa should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Not every crash is clear cut as to who is at fault, or even if there is fault, so unless you assign a jury to make a call on whether the rider who crashed did so due to his own carelessness, wrecklessness, poor riding, bad machinery then there is no definitive... You also then open the door up for appeals from teams who claim their man crashed due to the oil left by the kawasaki that blew a motor, etc etc.
I agree it sounds unfair and would like to see a change, but at the moment it would cause too many headaches to try and discount riders who did not finish .
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Old 20 Sep 2005, 07:21 (Ref:1411951)   #9
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Both interesting points - but the question is - if all riders didn't come off for the reasons that you mention, then the issue is with the rider that did.

If you have a field of 25 bikes and 24 of them manage with the oil/rain/etc. but one doesn't, then surely by definition, the red flag will be his/her fault since for whatever reason, they were unable to cope with the conditions. Ditto with mechanical issues - that's the team's problem!

The only instance where I don't think that would apply is if they're deliberately taken out by another rider.
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Old 20 Sep 2005, 08:17 (Ref:1411991)   #10
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bestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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If you have a field of 25 bikes and 24 of them manage with the oil/rain/etc. but one doesn't, then surely by definition, the red flag will be his/her fault since for whatever reason, they were unable to cope with the conditions.
These situations are rarely black and white. If we look at the Motegi incident, Luthi was highsided coming onto the straight, no argument. There was a gap of approx 1 second to the next group of riders following Luthi. The first 4 riders in the group had enough time to take evasive action and ride around Luthi's bike, however the 5th rider (Gadea) first hit Luthi's feet and then crashed into his prone bike spreading debris across the track. The race was then red flagged. If you watch the replay, coming onto the straight Gadea was looking over his shoulder checking the gap behind him and therefore would not have seen Luthi's crash. By the time he looked forward again he had no time left to take evasive action.

So the question is who caused the race to be stopped? If Gadea had not looked behind coming onto the straight it is likely that he would have also been able to avoid Luthi's bike allowing the bike to be removed from the track under yellow flags. Luthi would have been out of the race but the race would have continued. The race was stopped due to debris on the track from Gadea's collision not from Luthi's initial highside.

So if the rules are changed, who should be excluded from the results, Luthi? Gadea? both?

I am only using this incident as an example, personally I think the rules should remain as they are, I don't think blame should be levelled at either rider it was a racing incident. But I can see how changing the rules could open a can of worms with finger pointing and arguments between the teams and officials.

What I find more interesting is the fact that KTM had to raise a protest against Luthi's team, asking for the capacity of the Honda to be checked, in order to use the protest as a "catalyst" for opening a discussion with the officials over the red flag rule. What's that all about????
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Old 20 Sep 2005, 09:35 (Ref:1412037)   #11
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Hazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin
If you have a field of 25 bikes and 24 of them manage with the oil/rain/etc. but one doesn't, then surely by definition, the red flag will be his/her fault since for whatever reason, they were unable to cope with the conditions.
The only sticker is that the race is red flagged in anything greater than spitting rain so they can change bikes. And unfotunatly the race director isn't very pro-active in making this descision and it's normally a nasty crash that instigates the red flag when they deem that "Oh shoot, I guess it was too dangerous for them."

Ie: Donnington 125 race this year.

The general idea is that the leaders or riders put the hand up and signal that "bugger this for a lark lets get the wet gear going." But at Brno last year the race director flat ignored the riders, resulting in some funny gestures by angry Spaniards to the race tower :d .
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Old 27 Sep 2005, 03:01 (Ref:1417529)   #12
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elephino should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridelephino should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The only reason there are complaints are that Luthi scored decent points. It's really nothing to do with the rules.

There's nothing wrong with the rules as when the red flag drops, they go back to the last completed lap (F1 goes back 2 laps, which is why there was that confusion in Brazil). Fault cannot be taken into the red flag for numerous reasons - a big one being that fault cannot always be attributed. If someone is running or not shouldn't have anything to do with it. Some people in the sport try to bring emotion into unemotional rules.
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