DTM Regulations

[helgi]

Let that REAL CARS work for an hour (not 15 minutes) and without 50 kilo handicaps but with a strict technical regulations for EVERYBODY instead. We'll see what a dull race it's going to be I hope there'll be thousand or two thousands of REALCARSfans from all over the world to watch that astounding event :-):-):-)

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by thepits!

Yep - isn't it great - so what that it doesn't look like a 'road-going' car - what PROPER racing car does?

Its supposed to be a touringcar. The whole purpose of touringcar racing is that they resemble roadcars. Like DTM did in the past, when it was still worthy the name.

[Helmpflicht99]

Hello !!!

The only good Race in this Season was the last Race on the Nürburgring. A chaos Qualifying, a chaos-strategy from Audi and a really cool Race from Ekström, Scheider and Paul di Resta (Luck for Schneider, that the Race wasn´t 1 Lap longer). The other 6 Races of the Season were really boring. Esspacially the Norisring-Race was a big disappointment. 4 Cars (Green, Spengler, Ekström & Scheider) were close together at the last 10 Laps. And what happened ???

Nothing !!!
No Overtaking (not even an attempt). That wasn´t very exciting. And Norisring is a Course where you can see many overtaking-manouvers (but not this year). Brands Hatch Indy isn´t it. And so I think we will see another boring Race.

I hope that the new technical rules of the DTM make the cars more like the "old DTM-Style" (stable and fast Cars).

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht99

the cars more like the "old DTM-Style" (stable and fast Cars).

Group A or Class 1?

[Helmpflicht99]

Originally Posted by Valenok

Group A or Class 1?

Group A (but a modern Group A). The best Time of the DTM was with the Group A. With the "Class 1"-Cars, the DTM starts to go too expensive. And this ends in the ITC-Death 1996.

The Cars we´re now have are like the old "Class 1 Cars". and that´s not good.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht99

Group A (but a modern Group A). The best Time of the DTM was with the Group A. With the "Class 1"-Cars, the DTM starts to go too expensive. And this ends in the ITC-Death 1996.

The Cars we´re now have are like the old "Class 1 Cars". and that´s not good.

1. Modern Group A is known as S2000 Group A - Superturism - S2000
2. The best time with Group A had end in 1992 when 2 of 3 makes decide to go on
3. DTM starts to go too expensive a little bit earlier - when manufactureres entered championship and private teams go on. 1987-1988. But, ofcause, Class 1 continued tendence of rising costs
4. Nowdays cars are not like old Class 1 - their development is frozen due to save costs. But it's not enough to attract private teams.

[werner]

Originally Posted by Valenok

1. Modern Group A is known as S2000 Group A - Superturism - S2000

Is S2000 not evolved out of superproductionrules, ie that a superproductioncar can be changed at point X, Y and Z, to make it a S2000-car?
That's technically though. 'Spiritually', you are right. S2000 is the top-class for productionbased 2l-cars.

[Helmpflicht99]

Originally Posted by Valenok

1. Modern Group A is known as S2000 Group A - Superturism - S2000

Yes, but I mean "faster" S2000-Cars. There´s some discussion on the DTM.com-Forum about it. The Fans there don´t like the S2000 because the cars are too slow for them. Maybe the DTM needs a Reglement like the V8-Supercars.

Originally Posted by Valenok

2. The best time with Group A had end in 1992 when 2 of 3 makes decide to go on

BMW was against the Class 1 Reglement. And Audi protests against the Rule-Changes that put Audi in the middle of the Field (The ITR bans the new crank shaft).

Originally Posted by Valenok

3. DTM starts to go too expensive a little bit earlier - when manufactureres entered championship and private teams go on. 1987-1988. But, ofcause, Class 1 continued tendence of rising costs
4. Nowdays cars are not like old Class 1 - their development is frozen due to save costs. But it's not enough to attract private teams.

That´s right. The DTM was too expensive (1 Car: 1996 = 500.000 €) and today it´s expensive, too (1. Car 2008 = 750.000 €).

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht99

1.Maybe the DTM needs a Reglement like the V8-Supercars.

2.And Audi protests against the Rule-Changes that put Audi in the middle of the Field (The ITR bans the new crank shaft).

3.The DTM was too expensive (1 Car: 1996 = 500.000 €) and today it´s expensive, too (1. Car 2008 = 750.000 €).

1.V8-Supercars has a little connection with production based cars - they have serious body modifications and new engine-transmission group.
If you see Superstar's, they have more strong connections, but they have debates about handycap system - it wasn't hard to predict
2.Theese rule-plays are common things in touringcar racing - car's can't be equal, and every attempt to equalize them is doubtful
3.So we need another silhouett-prototype reglament, with lower costs and stronger connection with road-car's.

[Helmpflicht99]

Originally Posted by Valenok

3.So we need another silhouett-prototype reglament, with lower costs and stronger connection with road-car's.

The ITR works on a new Reglement for 2010. But this needs new manufactures. With Mercedes and Audi will Citroen, BMW and Lexus/Toyota work on the new Reglement, too (I´ve heard and read).

But Renember 1993. 5 manufactures worked on the "Class 1 Reglement" (Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Opel & Alfa-Romeo). But only 2 raced in 1993 (Mercedes & Alfa-Romeo). Opel had his "Comeback" at the Season-Final 1993.

So this Time the ITR needs some guarantee for 2010. That means: "We need more manufactures !". No Manufactures, no new Reglement !!!

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht99

The ITR works on a new Reglement for 2010. But this needs new manufactures.

I think, we need new reglament in any case - with or without new manufacturers.
Cutting aerodynamic (overtaking ability), money saving and new sport regulations - problems are named and they demand decision anyway

[Helmpflicht99]

This is not from me. The ITR tries to catch some new manufactures with the new Reglement. They mean that Audi and Mercedes are to good in this Series. It needs a new Reglement that they all Start at "0 %" and everyone has the same chances.

[helgi]

And what changes should be done? Make another TCC? There's DTC (or something about that) and it's so popular in German,you know...
Maybe,there're MarsTouringCarChampionship or JupiterTouringCarsChampionship,I don't know. But,it's too boring to watch the same cars all over the World. If I'm going to Kent I want to see Leeds Castle but not the Eifel Tower. Where's the variety?And the main question,where's the nations unique specials? What does WTCC smells now? With diesel? Now it's an incomprehenciale medley. There's no self-identify. Leave BTCC and STCC. That two TCC smell real racing (I really think so,no smiles) even with SEAT buses at the grid.
And German main championship was a special technical thing always.
What it should be? An extra-S3000 with huge weight and inertia moment?
Well,it needs only some aerodynamics haircut and only one mandatory pit-stop. Nothing else. Maybe,some tracks like Sachsenring.
We don't need another TCC. We need DTM at its best.

[duke_toaster]

Here is my suggestion for new DTM rules.

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Here is my suggestion for new DTM rules.

"At least 2500 fully identical units must have been produced in 12 consecutive months and homologated by the FIA in Touring Cars (Group A). Supply Variants"

[Alex K]

Let them enter group in LMS, kill DTM, we'll have more cars in FIA GT or LMS. Porsches, Ferraris, Mercedes' and Audi (probably R8s instead of A4s) with protos (if under LMS rulling), this would be one hell of a series.

[helgi]

Splendid idea. There're too many racing series in the World. Let's give every team identical cars!

It's the best way to say something is rubbish if you don't want or can not undertand it. Or you just envy that DTM events usually collect more spectators than touring racing. It's too special and you need to love it or to be an engineer to understand it.
If you are looking for some show,than 15-minutes bus and granny's car racing is an evidient choice.

[stedevil]

Mmmm, Audi R8's racing... *Drools*

[KA]

Originally Posted by helgi

And what changes should be done? Make another TCC? There's DTC (or something about that) and it's so popular in German,you know...
Maybe,there're MarsTouringCarChampionship or JupiterTouringCarsChampionship,I don't know. But,it's too boring to watch the same cars all over the World. If I'm going to Kent I want to see Leeds Castle but not the Eifel Tower. Where's the variety?And the main question,where's the nations unique specials? What does WTCC smells now? With diesel? Now it's an incomprehenciale medley. There's no self-identify. Leave BTCC and STCC. That two TCC smell real racing (I really think so,no smiles) even with SEAT buses at the grid.
And German main championship was a special technical thing always.
What it should be? An extra-S3000 with huge weight and inertia moment?
Well,it needs only some aerodynamics haircut and only one mandatory pit-stop. Nothing else. Maybe,some tracks like Sachsenring.
We don't need another TCC. We need DTM at its best.

On the other hand, if you look at the last 25 years, what were the peaks in touring car racing? Group A and Supertouring, when you had a basic ruleset that was applicable worldwide, and a manufacturer could homologate a car and race it almost anywhere from the UK to Australia and Japan- and there were still cars that were only ever seen in one particular series. Right now the whole scene is much too fragmented

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by KA

On the other hand, if you look at the last 25 years, what were the peaks in touring car racing? Group A and Supertouring, when you had a basic ruleset that was applicable worldwide, and a manufacturer could homologate a car and race it almost anywhere from the UK to Australia and Japan- and there were still cars that were only ever seen in one particular series. Right now the whole scene is much too fragmented

It's rather difficult in our days to race in different series, despite on common tech reg. We don't see many british, sweden, german and italian championship participants in world and other championships.

But I think, it would be nice to see silhouetts not only in DTM)
For example, in some endurance races, like Nurburgring 24h and so on)

[helgi]

The fact is everything became business now. Of course,I can not know if it was the same thing in 70's. But from today's point of view that was an amazing era of wonderful racing with rich enthusiasts, interesting design decisions...
Well,the progress in heavy industry now steps forward and it's too expensive to suggest a really interesting design decision.
Every tenth cut from a lap time costs millions and millions euro. From this point of view it's practically impossible to imagine really liberal regulations for designers, 'watchable' for spectators, acceptable for owner's pockets.
So, championships with strict (mostly on paper) regulations are popular. But difficulties makes us stronger. We'll intent something I'm sure.

As for 'show in the races'. As one russian autosport historian says 'Spectator should know it's place!'. Let's fix one thing. Are races held for spectators,or races held for teams and drivers to check what mix of pilot-car is best in certain conditions?

If it's a show then there's nothing strange in handicaps, different regulations for different teams and so on. I'd like to watch Olympic 100m final with Bolt carrying bag of potatos or Argentinians winning one-leg-jumping-football match.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Valenok

It's rather difficult in our days to race in different series, despite on common tech reg. We don't see many british, sweden, german and italian championship participants in world and other championships.

Full seasons in multiple championships, which often has overlapping race weekends, is of course difficult to do by a driver.

But we regularly see about half a dussen STCC drivers in selected WTCC races, especially in the late season when the STCC has ended. And eg Tommo is this year trying to do both WTCC and DTC. To this add the DTC team that lately has been at WTCC meetings and wasn't there a Adac Procar team present once as well? And Russians, they keep poping up in this or that championship from time to time (and I assume we would see a lot more of this if visa and bordercrossings were a lot less tedious).

[KA]

Originally Posted by Valenok

It's rather difficult in our days to race in different series, despite on common tech reg. We don't see many british, sweden, german and italian championship participants in world and other championships.

But I think, it would be nice to see silhouetts not only in DTM)
For example, in some endurance races, like Nurburgring 24h and so on)

It's not just about competitors taking in races in other series though- put yourself in a manufacturers' position- you can either build a DTM car which is basically only usable in Germany, or you can put your money behind an S2000 car for the WTCC, and potentially have programmes run and backed by your local importer or agent in the BTCC, STCC, DTC, ADAC Procar etc.....

[helgi]

It always depends on what markets are the most important for the makes. Audi didn't start 'R15' project for Le Mans till they have finished today's DTM Rocket.
Chinese market is very important for Mercedes and Audi. So,DTM is going to step there soon. Russian market is very big too.
Besides,Germans don't want their cars to compare with cheap sedans. Both AMG and S-line cars are three times more expensive than Leon or Lacetti (not saying about Lada-proto).
Bavarians are not happy with strange Technical Bureau (or how it's called I don't know) politics. BMW if not kept on a chain would be 10 seconds faster than any other touring car,because of perfect base car. They just need identical technical regulations.
But I'm sure they don't enter DTM even they are talking about new regulations with M&A. They really need races all over the World. So,the right step for them - GT.
I expect Lexus to join DTM in 2010 as it's luxurious car and needs some advertisement in Europe.