Montoya exclusion. Why after 50+ laps???? - Page 4

**Adam43** · 22 Jun 2004, 17:57 (Ref:1012401)

Quote:

Originally posted by Hepatic
Man, never seen so much rubbish about rules in my life!

This thread says basically what you typed after that sentence!

**Adam43** · 22 Jun 2004, 18:01 (Ref:1012402)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kicking-back
If he had stayed on the grid after the 15 seconds board he would not have been allowed to use the spare.

Yes, I meant more is there a way of defining a way (in the furture) that would allow a late change to the spare (to keep a racer in the race) without comprimising the safety aspect of the original rule?

Afterall everyone stayed away from the car until the rest of the field had moved past. The car then has to be moved whatever, so maybe the driver should be allowed at this point to go to the spare. He'll have got out now anyway.

The rule is sensible, but perhaps there is a way to improve it without making any difference to safety?

Kicking-back · 22 Jun 2004, 18:08 (Ref:1012408)

I think it's fair enough not to allow the spare.

If your car breaks on lap one, you're out, so if it breaks on the grid what's the difference?

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

**Adam43** · 22 Jun 2004, 18:12 (Ref:1012411)

Oh I agree, but why make the cut off then and not after Q? Also there is another reason why it isn't after the start. There would be no point as you'd be too far behind.

The T car is hardly allowed and it stops people seeing drivers in practice which is unpopular. I don't see any harm in extending the T car rule for this extra period to keep the driver out there. The race hasn't started fully.

Mr V · 22 Jun 2004, 18:41 (Ref:1012443)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kicking-back
I think it's fair enough not to allow the spare.

If your car breaks on lap one, you're out, so if it breaks on the grid what's the difference?

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

But if a race has to be re-started, due to an accident for example, a driver with a damaged car can take the re-start in the spare, Spa 1998 a good case in point, so where does your cut off point come into play here?

Hepatic · 22 Jun 2004, 19:06 (Ref:1012462)

that was red flagged, this wasn't.

gert · 22 Jun 2004, 19:25 (Ref:1012479)

Why not make the cut-off at the START of the warm-up lap?

This would enable a driver to take the T-car when his cars fails on the grid (and so make Montoya's jump legal)
On the other hand, this would prohibit drivers from coming into the pits after warmup and taking the spare car, as they have already started their warmup lap.

As for a red-flagged race, there would be no problem. If the race before the red flag is declared void, everyone is allowed to take the spare car -as they are now.

Kicking-back · 22 Jun 2004, 19:45 (Ref:1012504)

One interesting point.

In the past if a race was red flagged on lap 1, you could take the spare from your original grid position.

Now, if you take the spare, you've to start at the back.

**Adam43** · 22 Jun 2004, 19:45 (Ref:1012506)

Quote:

Originally posted by gert
Why not make the cut-off at the START of the warm-up lap?

Isn't that what we have now?

Quote:

Originally posted by gert
This would enable a driver to take the T-car when his cars fails on the grid (and so make Montoya's jump legal)

Quote:

Originally posted by gert
JPM jumped after the start of the warm up lap.
On the other hand, this would prohibit drivers from coming into the pits after warmup and taking the spare car, as they have already started their warmup lap.

:confused: Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean as this isn't allowed now or ever has been?

Whatever there needs to be a rule stopping drivers (or other team members) running around on the grid while the cars are pulling away. Which is what we have now with the 15s rule.

The discussion point I put forward was whether it is possible to allow a change to T car after this if the car aon't start.

gert · 22 Jun 2004, 20:41 (Ref:1012562)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Isn't that what we have now?

Euhm ... yep, but I mean without the 15 or whatever seconds rule...

I would like the driver to be allowed to participate with his spare car -regardless of that 15 second rule.

gert · 22 Jun 2004, 20:47 (Ref:1012570)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore

Quote:

Originally posted by gert
On the other hand, this would prohibit drivers from coming into the pits after warmup and taking the spare car, as they have already started their warmup lap.

:confused: Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean as this isn't allowed now or ever has been?

Sorry. I failed to make myself clear.

What I meant:
I would like the drivers to be able to change to the spare car if they fail to get off the grid at the start of the Warmup.
But the rule must be so that the driver can only change when he doesn't start the warmup. So no loophole of driving into the pits after the warmup lap and step into the spare car for the race itself.

So basically: cut-off point of changing car at start of warmup, instead of 15 seconds before the start of that lap.

Kicking-back · 22 Jun 2004, 20:55 (Ref:1012580)

But the 15 second rule is there for important safety reasons.

gert · 22 Jun 2004, 21:04 (Ref:1012597)

Okay that's true ... but I don't think it would have made a difference to safety if JPM got out of the car 20, 15 or 10 seconds before the start.

If the car had a problem, it would remain stationary anyway. That means: yellow flags around this car, and getting the car off the grid before the actual race start.

What exactly is the main safety concern? The stationary car, or the driver running away from it?

In case of the car: nothing changes with or without the 15 seconds rule.

For the driver: would it be better to let him stay in the car and allow him to run to his spare AFTER every other car left the grid? if that rule would be applied, that would leave him enough time, no?

Kicking-back · 22 Jun 2004, 21:06 (Ref:1012600)

The main safety concern is to stop drivers and/or mechanics being run over.

BootsOntheSide · 22 Jun 2004, 21:31 (Ref:1012643)

That wouldn't happen anymore. The procedure of having yellow flags waved behind the car would prevent it. Anyway, safety wasn't considered when there was a crash on lap one which spileld the debris which caused Ralf and maybe ALonso to crash heavily, so why is it any different now? Surely the best thign to do for a race is to have as many working cars involved in it as possible?

Kicking-back · 22 Jun 2004, 21:39 (Ref:1012652)

The spare car thing has been an issue maybe three times in the past twenty years.

No reason to change the rules.

**Adam43** · 22 Jun 2004, 21:46 (Ref:1012658)

Its a pain (for the fans) when it is though! The frequency is not really an issue IMHO.

Gt_R · 23 Jun 2004, 01:03 (Ref:1012786)

Honestly, i cant see the reason why a perfectly sensible safety rule has to be changed because it robbed JPM of points.

The rule is simple, clear and existed for years. But never was it a problem until Williams broke it?

The rule works together with the yellow flag, and this rule was created after painful experiences in the pasts. So to just remove it to boost the show is irresponsible.

Btw, If i did not remember wrongly, a few years back a team (Williams?) was punished for having their mechanics working on the car after the time limit, and left the track late?

People can argue that 15s is no different from 20s or whatever, but the system has it that the countdown to a race start is constantly made known to the teams, so there's really little to fight for when such simple rules are broken. And the 15 s is to give the all-clear signal that no personnel is on the grid, so that the warm up lap can commence.

Look at it from the bright side. JPM managed to race 50laps which wasn't suppose to happen, and for the fans, it gave us one more driver (significant considering the high rate of retirements) to enjoy watching for 50+laps.

So instead of us being robbed off 18laps of Montoya racing, FIA gift us with 50laps.

Hepatic · 23 Jun 2004, 07:01 (Ref:1012907)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gt_R
Honestly, i cant see the reason why a perfectly sensible safety rule has to be changed because it robbed JPM of points.

The rule is simple, clear and existed for years. But never was it a problem until Williams broke it?

The rule works together with the yellow flag, and this rule was created after painful experiences in the pasts. So to just remove it to boost the show is irresponsible.

Btw, If i did not remember wrongly, a few years back a team (Williams?) was punished for having their mechanics working on the car after the time limit, and left the track late?

People can argue that 15s is no different from 20s or whatever, but the system has it that the countdown to a race start is constantly made known to the teams, so there's really little to fight for when such simple rules are broken. And the 15 s is to give the all-clear signal that no personnel is on the grid, so that the warm up lap can commence.

Look at it from the bright side. JPM managed to race 50laps which wasn't suppose to happen, and for the fans, it gave us one more driver (significant considering the high rate of retirements) to enjoy watching for 50+laps.

So instead of us being robbed off 18laps of Montoya racing, FIA gift us with 50laps.

At last, someone making some sense.....

It's far safer to be in a car and be hit that walking on the grid and be hit, hence the 15s rule. You only need to see the crash in Kyalami in '77 to understand that.

gert · 23 Jun 2004, 10:31 (Ref:1013120)

What you write makes sense, Gt_R, but I would like to point out that it's not just because JPM was struck by the 15s rule that I would like it to be changed...

In fact ... I didn't know the rule existed before what happened last weekend.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hepatic

It's far safer to be in a car and be hit that walking on the grid and be hit, hence the 15s rule. You only need to see the crash in Kyalami in '77 to understand that.

I agree with the safety concerns, but on the other hand, I would like to see as much cars as possible start the race...

If the driver would be allowed to change to the spare car, but only could leave the car after all other cars have left the grid, would that make sense to you?

After all, Montoya would have been in the stationary car on the grid anyway...

CobraSVT · 23 Jun 2004, 14:12 (Ref:1013397)

He was out of his car in at 15 seconds, but not out of the grid. What? a big 15 seconds woopdy do come on , they could atleast said no from the beginning. That was really stupid

Homer Simpson · 23 Jun 2004, 14:35 (Ref:1013422)

According to the FIA, the reason they took so long with the decision was exactly because of the seriousness of the penalty requiring them to examine the tapes and all relevant material with great care. Furthermore, the multiple incidents as well as RS's crash took time and attention away from reviewing the JPM incident, hence the time delay. Their exact words were something to the effect of "we didn't want to make any mistakes".

Kicking-back · 23 Jun 2004, 14:41 (Ref:1013429)

Fair enough.

BootsOntheSide · 23 Jun 2004, 15:31 (Ref:1013480)

Montoya entering the race form the pitlae after eveyroen else had started the warm-up lap endangered no-one. If he could've simply waited in the car untile veryone had gone, then got in the spare car in the pits, he wouldn't've been endangered. The rule that caused him to be black-flagged has no direct relevance to safety, or to Kyalami 77 (which was to do with a marshall crossing the track as cars hurtled across a blind brow).

Hepatic · 23 Jun 2004, 19:25 (Ref:1013752)

agreed, staying in the car would have, in my view, been fine. The rule is defo a saftey related one, and the kyalami example was just to prove that walking on track with moving cars is dangerous, not as a direct comparision...

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