[WEC] 2017 WEC Season

[chernaudi]

2017 is bound to be a down year because LMP1 is too expensive unless you're a factory team--and I'm not seeing any car makers wanting to fill the breach that Audi Sport left. Not to mention that the ACO jacked up the entry fees for GTE-Pro so they can have a World Championship title of their own.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

2017 is bound to be a down year because LMP1 is too expensive unless you're a factory team--and I'm not seeing any car makers wanting to fill the breach that Audi Sport left. Not to mention that the ACO jacked up the entry fees for GTE-Pro so they can have a World Championship title of their own.

We already know that 2018 is the year of the privateer overhaul. This was also known by the teams interested. Ginetta I think was the one who said their plans for 2018 were taking shape before Audi left. In GTE-PRO, the factory teams can afford to pay for their world championship status. And that's all there is in the class anyway.

[chernaudi]

I'll believe it when I see it with the private teams. It was basically Rebellion and Kolles left by 2013/2014, and they've had three-four years for anyone else to show up. And I think that Rebellion defecting back to LMP2 shows what private teams--and also IMO the ACO--think of private teams in LMP1. And whatever the ACO have up their sleeves, it might be just like LMP1 factory: too little, too late, at least for the short term.

[TF110]

Yeah Rebellion were looking for actual competition. It's no wonder they went to lmp2. I think Manor in particular is the team that will be there and it seems like ByKolles has no plans to stop.

[DistortedSmile]

It's been a house of cards from the beginning IMO.

[RWill2073]

Looks like alms. Start off good but quickly start heading downhill. A privateer overhaul could look like alms when it was Dyson mazda, muscle milk Aston martin, Fernandez Acura, and there was one other I think. Then after spending the money for a couple years they'll start pulling out too.

Disclaimer: I've always sort of disliked the wec for the way they treated the alms and elms. I watch the races because the p1 races are great. Without audi, even that's going downhill.

[Akrapovic]

The WEC is the best thing that ever happened to ELMS. Take away the big expensive cars and allow smaller teams in to compete properly. It's turned out brilliantly.

I don't think it made a huge different to ALMS. That was already turning into a joke before WEC came along, prototype wise. Couple of Dysons that every so often didn't catch fire, and Scott Dodgy Tucker.

[RWill2073]

Oh I agree that alms was going under without help from wec. But it certainly wasn't good for alms to have the wec seemingly competing with them rather than working together. As for the elms, I admit I'm not knowledgeable on them much at all. But didn't they have "pro" top classes before the wec? Even if it has bigger fields now, if your top class is pro am you can't be a top level series, imo. And I guess that's what I want to consider the alms and elms as supposed to be, considering they use(d) le mans in their name and were where the top prototypes raced in those days.

And going back to wec, would it be surprising to see one of these scenarios play out?

1) five or six privateer p1s show up by 2018, Toyota and/or Porsche pull out, leaving the p1 grid similar to what I wrote above.

2) Toyota and Porsche stay, or some other manufacturer comes in as one of them leave, leaving a four car race for the win, and after a year or two of toiling away in p1, the privateers lose interest/money/whatever and leave and it's back to a thin grid constantly worrying of a catastrophic pull out of one of the two manufacturers.

That entry list is less than 30 cars. Half or more will be pro am. That's not much of a premier series. To compare to alms again, take out the spec p2 (pc), and gte am (gtc), and you're at around 15-20 car grids, which is where the alms was as it began to come tumbling down.

But, I admit, I might be looking at it from a biased viewpoint because I do hold a grudge from them competing with the alms way back when. I still watched as much of the races last year as I could, which was basically what came on fs1. And I'll watch some of it this year too.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Oh I agree that alms was going under without help from wec. But it certainly wasn't good for alms to have the wec seemingly competing with them rather than working together. As for the elms, I admit I'm not knowledgeable on them much at all. But didn't they have "pro" top classes before the wec? Even if it has bigger fields now, if your top class is pro am you can't be a top level series, imo. And I guess that's what I want to consider the alms and elms as supposed to be, considering they use(d) le mans in their name and were where the top prototypes raced in those days.

And going back to wec, would it be surprising to see one of these scenarios play out?

1) five or six privateer p1s show up by 2018, Toyota and/or Porsche pull out, leaving the p1 grid similar to what I wrote above.

2) Toyota and Porsche stay, or some other manufacturer comes in as one of them leave, leaving a four car race for the win, and after a year or two of toiling away in p1, the privateers lose interest/money/whatever and leave and it's back to a thin grid constantly worrying of a catastrophic pull out of one of the two manufacturers.

That entry list is less than 30 cars. Half or more will be pro am. That's not much of a premier series. To compare to alms again, take out the spec p2 (pc), and gte am (gtc), and you're at around 15-20 car grids, which is where the alms was as it began to come tumbling down.

But, I admit, I might be looking at it from a biased viewpoint because I do hold a grudge from them competing with the alms way back when. I still watched as much of the races last year as I could, which was basically what came on fs1. And I'll watch some of it this year too.

If things become problematic then the WEC will try a few things I'm sure: 1) Change length of different races 2)Replace GTE Am with a GT3 Am class 3)Open up LMP1 to DPI cars.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Oh I agree that alms was going under without help from wec. But it certainly wasn't good for alms to have the wec seemingly competing with them rather than working together. As for the elms, I admit I'm not knowledgeable on them much at all. But didn't they have "pro" top classes before the wec? Even if it has bigger fields now, if your top class is pro am you can't be a top level series, imo. And I guess that's what I want to consider the alms and elms as supposed to be, considering they use(d) le mans in their name and were where the top prototypes raced in those days.

But ELMS isn't meant to be a top level series - it's a ladder to the WEC, which is the top level series. That's how it should be - National -> Regional -> World.

ELMS ran with P1 (pro) cars until 2011. They dropped the class when the ILMC was formed, which obviously became WEC. But they had a problem anyway in that the Pro teams weren't really showing up properly. Peugeot and Audi would turn up for the pre-Le Mans event in 2010, whilst Aston Martin dipped in and out as well. In 2010, one was won by Beechdean Mansell Ginetta - hardly an incredible car. What ELMS did have was a solid LMP2 class. Dropping LMP1 allowed stability. With P1 cars, you never knew what cars were turning up to what race. Imagine watching round 1, and buying a ticket for round 4, only to find Peugeot, Aston and Audi weren't going to that event. You'd be gutted. With the structure they have now, it gives stability, and gives a proper ladder.

That entry list is less than 30 cars. Half or more will be pro am. That's not much of a premier series. To compare to alms again, take out the spec p2 (pc), and gte am (gtc), and you're at around 15-20 car grids, which is where the alms was as it began to come tumbling down.

Welcome to modern racing, unfortunately. Even if you look at IMSA, most of the grid has a pay driver in the car. If you look back at ALMS, says, 2010 as a direct comparison to ELMS of the day, again half the grid, even the pro class, has ams. Greg Pickett and Paul Drayson for example. Even Chris Dyson - racing for the family team isn't exactly pro level.

I do see what you're saying but I think we do have a lot of rose tints looking back. I have to say, I prefer new IMSA to ALMS. It just seems better to me (or will be in 2017). I prefer WEC to nothing. I prefer new ELMS to old ELMS/LMS. It just all seems to fit right now. Obviously I'd like more cars in WEC, but it's hardly terrible.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

If things become problematic then the WEC will try a few things I'm sure: 1) Change length of different races 2)Replace GTE Am with a GT3 Am class 3)Open up LMP1 to DPI cars.

1) There's the date equity thing that they keep going on about. 6 hour race, this location, roughly the same time every year. Not saying it's a firm no to changing race lengths, but it's currently part of a determined formula.

2) This has worked well for IMSA, but GTE/GT3 top speeds might be too close for comfort at Le Mans. I think WEC will want to protect the Le Mans pecking order more than IMSA wants to protect Daytona.

3) Pride might intervene here. I think FIA would sooner just rewrite the P1 formula before just opening up the class to whatever IMSA is doing.

I think a string of major announcements would need to happen for the WEC to grow in grid size and popularity as the rules sit right now.

[TF110]

I see no reason for Porsche or Toyota to drop out in the next few years. The cars are staying in the same regulatory ruleset until 2020 at the least. That means they can perfect the cars they have or if they make a new chassis, it won't be a huge undertaking to develop it for new regulations. It seems like some forget that. I expect to see at least one more manufacturer state their entry for the new rules and they'll have a big say in those. And I see at least 2 more lmp1 privateer cars by next year with possibly more in 2019. Then you get the new GTE regs and we know that Lamborghini are interested and perhaps McLaren on top of the confirmed BMW! I think things are definitely looking up, not down.

[carbsmith]

Sports car racing has always been ProAm. Do you know how many amateur drivers won Le Mans overall before there was a class for them?

Why do people have such a hard on for international sports car racing failing? More P1 entries get announced and you sad sacks desperately spin things as worse than ever. It's pathetic, you make IndyCar fans look good.

[chernaudi]

If Porsche wins LM this year and no one else comes in soon, I can see them leaving. They're part of the whole VAG Dieselgate fiasco, too. And like Audi Sport who felt like the rules were constraining them and at the same time forcing them to ramp up cost for less gains over time, I can see Porsche using that as justification for an early pull out.

And if Toyota win LM twice within the next couple of years, they might pull out if things no longer interest them. That was a big part of the Audi pull out on a technology end.

The ACO failed to provide a rules set that's affordable and interesting. They should've either moved slower with phasing in hybrids while keeping other tech regs more open, or adopted a more high tech DPI format.

[carbsmith]

If budget or dieselgate was an issue Porsche wouldn't run two factory GTE teams.

[chernaudi]

Note that I basically said "excuse". I doubt that budget was an issue for Audi. They got tired of being constrained by the rules (stint length) and being basically forced into running a gasoline engine within a year or two anyways (whilst running a near enough identical hybrid system to Porsche and TMG last season and for the foreseeable future). And they were probably getting tired of a lack of ROI, having to spend more money for less wins and fewer tech advances.

I can see Porsche and even Toyota dumping the WEC's LMP1 class for the same reasons within 1-3 years.

[carbsmith]

Once again, the GT teams would be dropped far before the LMP1 team for those reasons.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Once again, the GT teams would be dropped far before the LMP1 team for those reasons.

Why is this necessarily the case? The gt programs are cheaper, more identifiable, more relatable, etc.... Also more series for them to run those programs in.

And to clarify, I'm not pulling for the series to fail, it just looks to me like the wec is going the same path as far as entries as the alms.

And I am probably one of the minority who didn't mind the excessive classes at Sebring that year they ran combined. I remember (would have to dig it back up to verify), that the Sebring program detailed years when there were like, 15 classes back in the 50s or 60s or 70s. Like classes for different liter engines, weight, etc... So it seemed ok to me.

The pro am thing doesn't bother me either. My only reason for bringing it up is that the alms was said to be in serious trouble when it had two pro am spec classes making up half the grid. Now we have p2 in wec becoming pseudo spec, 2 pro am classes making up half the grid, which is under 30 cars, and only 4 really top level p1s. It could turn ugly just as quickly as get better imo.

Also, maybe you guys can blame me for the alms putting gtc in their races when they did. I remember walking through the Sebring paddock, I think Friday evening, the year there were only 26 entries for the 12 hour. I told my dad "they should just run the Porsche cup cars in the race for traffic and to fill out the grid. It would just add another race to follow". Oops.......

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Sports car racing has always been ProAm. Do you know how many amateur drivers won Le Mans overall before there was a class for them?

Why do people have such a hard on for international sports car racing failing? More P1 entries get announced and you sad sacks desperately spin things as worse than ever. It's pathetic, you make IndyCar fans look good.

I do not have a "hard on" for international sports car racing failing. I just want the idea that factories have to pony up $100m/year to compete to. Beyond that I want a rebuilt P1 class that privateers can be competitive in (at a $5m/year price-point), similar to what we saw in the ALMS in 2007 & 2008. This current rule set has decimated the LMP being a all-pro concept globally.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But ELMS isn't meant to be a top level series - it's a ladder to the WEC, which is the top level series. That's how it should be - National -> Regional -> World.

ELMS ran with P1 (pro) cars until 2011. They dropped the class when the ILMC was formed, which obviously became WEC. But they had a problem anyway in that the Pro teams weren't really showing up properly. Peugeot and Audi would turn up for the pre-Le Mans event in 2010, whilst Aston Martin dipped in and out as well. In 2010, one was won by Beechdean Mansell Ginetta - hardly an incredible car. What ELMS did have was a solid LMP2 class. Dropping LMP1 allowed stability. With P1 cars, you never knew what cars were turning up to what race. Imagine watching round 1, and buying a ticket for round 4, only to find Peugeot, Aston and Audi weren't going to that event. You'd be gutted. With the structure they have now, it gives stability, and gives a proper ladder.



Welcome to modern racing, unfortunately. Even if you look at IMSA, most of the grid has a pay driver in the car. If you look back at ALMS, says, 2010 as a direct comparison to ELMS of the day, again half the grid, even the pro class, has ams. Greg Pickett and Paul Drayson for example. Even Chris Dyson - racing for the family team isn't exactly pro level.

I do see what you're saying but I think we do have a lot of rose tints looking back. I have to say, I prefer new IMSA to ALMS. It just seems better to me (or will be in 2017). I prefer WEC to nothing. I prefer new ELMS to old ELMS/LMS. It just all seems to fit right now. Obviously I'd like more cars in WEC, but it's hardly terrible.

Just to touch on a couple things in here: I think before wec, when factory p1s would race in the elms, yes it was a regional series, but still top line, in the same way IndyCar and alms are/were.

To your point about the cars dropping in and out, I actually would he fine with that. Gives a little doubt as to who would win championships, gives some variety as to who you see win, and gives privateer teams reason to race in p1, knowing they could win some races.

I readily admit my glasses have some tint to them. I grew up going to the grand prix at road Atlanta starting in 1994, then petit le mans, then starting in 2006 started going to sebring too, and even made it to like rock two times. I haven't had the opportunity to attend an imsa race yet, and didn't really care to with dps. Now I'm excited again, except for bop shenanigans in every class.

I also think, reading and learning more about the inside stuff through sites like this, kind of hurts the pureness I had back then. I was ignorant to some of the problems going on, or even the cynical nature of something like "when will Dyson blow up this race?" I went to the races still holding out hope, lol. Now I feel like I know so much more of the off track issues that it makes it less purely exciting. Not complaining, mind you, I love reading about it, just saying.

[TF110]

All I know is that I look forward to this season and feel that lmp1 will be just fine. That's the most questionable class because of the small amount of entries. But if both teams are as close as they were towards the end of last year, it could be a 4 or even 5-way race for the win. I really hope Labre is able to get a GTE pro Vette as well.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The WEC is the best thing that ever happened to ELMS. Take away the big expensive cars and allow smaller teams in to compete properly. It's turned out brilliantly.

Very strongly disagree. There were only three or four ELMS P2 cars that were consistently competitive in 2016. The better teams have tended to go to the WEC… and while some new teams have come in, they mostly have been mediocre. I think ELMS P2 was brilliant in 2014 when it had 10-full year entries, and five different cars won races. That was the year WEC P2 had five full-year entries.

The eight-car ELMS GTE-Am grid in 2016 looked just looked sad.

And the best thing that ever happened to ELMS was LMP3. That's literally half the grid right there.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Very strongly disagree. There were only three or four ELMS P2 cars that were consistently competitive in 2016. The better teams have tended to go to the WEC… and while some new teams have come in, they mostly have been mediocre. I think ELMS P2 was brilliant in 2014 when it had 10-full year entries, and five different cars won races. That was the year WEC P2 had five full-year entries.

The eight-car ELMS GTE-Am grid in 2016 looked just looked sad.

And the best thing that ever happened to ELMS was LMP3. That's literally half the grid right there.

It sounds to me like you're actually agreeing. The 2014 ELMS season was exceptional, and 2015 was brilliant too (Greaves v Jota was awesome). But these season would not have happened had WEC not existed. We'd still have P1s dipping in and out, the private teams getting no shots at anything. We'd maybe have some Pro GTE cars, but it'd only be a handful, so we'd just have 2 tiny GTE grids. LMP3 wouldn't have happened if we had LMP1s on the grid either.

2016 wasn't as good as 2014, or 2015. But by any standards, it was certainly not a bad year, and had Greaves not had such a down year it would've been better. But lets not forget that even 2014, WEC still existed and that allowed ELMS to be moulded into the series it has become.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Why is this necessarily the case?

Because it was already the case last year.

More series? There is only one series on the planet where they need a GTE car to race a 911.

[kvenom]

No RGR this season according to Sportscar365, which means no Ligier JS17 either. Man the LMP2 grid looks pathetic, Rebellion, TDS and Alpine are the only ones confirmed.