Too Much Historic Racing?

[bauble]

As a long time follower of motor sport, and a child of the 50's I tend to prefer watching 'older' cars racing these days, however, there is a plethora of series, clubs, and categories to try and follow, and I have little idea about most 'championships'.
The VSCC mix ancient and 'modern' and the HSCC teeter on the edges of 'Historic', the Classic Saloons and assorted international Championships make it difficult to know what and who is what.

The Silverstone Classic and the Goodwood Revival each stand alone, while new series are announced almost daily it seems to me.

FisCar is a great idea and, I love the cars (OK JT?), but it must impact on other race fields at least on occasion.

I have no idea how this could be improved, but it would be nice as a spectator to be able to have continuity in one's season.

Now a series that had Fiscar/Historic Sports Cars in Race 1. Pre 60 Grand Cars Race 2. 500cc Formula 3 Race 3. Pre-war Sports Cars Race 4. Pre-war Single Seaters Race 5. Historic Saloons Race 6, and the final race Formula Libre.

For that I would travel the country.

For the rest? Well they can sort themselves out.

COG.

[275 GTB-4]

You have a smorgasbord available to you...people in other parts of the world (for example, the colonies) would kill to see what you can so easily go to see...

[Nick JM]

We are most fortunate that we have a wealth (pun intended) of histeric races and racers to enter and watch. However I do have two issues:

1. Why are the entry fees so expensive? Is it to keep the racing elite and keep out the perceived riffraff or,:

2. All the headline events exclude the more "ordinary" race entries. Sure we all like to see rare prancing horses and other stuff doing their thing but the backbone of racing are the lesser mortals with more ordinary provender. For example saloon racing seems to have taken over. Unless you have a touring car you are pretty much excluded from any of the big events. Unless you have a prancing horse a winged something g or other or a pointed crown you are pretty much excluded also.

I'm not saying the masses want to turn out to watch a festival of triumph spitfires or MGB's but at least let a few of them in to Donny fesrival or the S Classic

[bauble]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

You have a smorgasbord available to you...people in other parts of the world (for example, the colonies) would kill to see what you can so easily go to see...

That is precisely my point! Not that there is too much, but that it is spread over too many differing series.
My ideal, if you like, is a sort of BTCC type package/packages. The HSCC cater very well for a particular style/period of historic, which is great for members and spectators who love the cars, there is continuity of entry and format.

I would like to see something similar for earlier cars, and also what we could call Classic. Say three clearly defined 'packages' catering for the majority of tastes/eras. Then both entrants and spectators would be able to plan their season. I would imagine that The Masters is pretty much as I have described.

A 'Formula Libre' race at each event could mop up any strays perhaps.

I would imagine that if you like the Fiscar series you might well prefer cars of a similar period to make up the bulk, at least, of the other races on the programme.

When attending the Revival I always plan my lunch/tea breaks when the Juniors or rear engine GP cars are out, and no doubt other wait for the Brooklands.

It is all a matter of taste, and I am sure that it would help racing to thrive, and hopefully bring spectators in, as they could be sure of what they were getting for their money.


Bawbs.

[Colin McKay]

The market will sort them out, no race organiser will do it for long for love alone.

I seem to remember that the HSCC calculated that 1 less entry per race last year would have left them looking at a loss so its hard to criticize the level of entry fees if margins are really that slim.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by bauble

Now a series that had Fiscar/Historic Sports Cars in Race 1. Pre 60 Grand Cars Race 2. 500cc Formula 3 Race 3. Pre-war Sports Cars Race 4. Pre-war Single Seaters Race 5. Historic Saloons Race 6, and the final race Formula Libre.

COG.

Throw in Formula Junior and you aren't far off what was on offer in the 80s.

Maybe we will start talking about historic historic racing soon e.g. remember the Lloyds & Scottish series, FISA trophy etc. when everyone had a great time socialising and knew their own cars inside out.

That was so long ago that some of the cars that were new then are now considered to be historic, which means that the number of historic racing cars has grown massively and exponentially - there were far more 60s racing cars built than 50s ones and more 70s than 60s etc.

Such a series would be great but look at the problems Goodwood has with choosing what to put on and they limit themselves to pre-70s (ish) cars.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

The market will sort them out, no race organiser will do it for long for love alone.

I seem to remember that the HSCC calculated that 1 less entry per race last year would have left them looking at a loss so its hard to criticize the level of entry fees if margins are really that slim.

It strikes me that HSCC has got it right, then. There again it's a club rather than a profit making organisation.

[chunder]

I would not say there is too much historic racing.

I would say though there is too much stuff that pretends to be historic but is in fact only 15 years old.

I can understand this, and respect it to a certain extent. But some of the categories have such a wide spectrum of entrants and cars that you are covering 40 odd years in one race.

But you either do that, or have lots of small races and small grids.

In all honesty historic racing has thrived in recent years, far more so than circuit racing. And it is extending to other arenas, rallying, rallycross, bikes.

Some tend to not iffer much unless you are in marque clubs such as speed events, they offer little for historic competitors.

Even short oval racign now has classic sections. Some sports have none like autograss.

One event I enjoyed massively last year was Dragstalgia at Santa Pod, a discipline that thrives on nostalgia and embraces its American roots, and what a shock a massive crowd, notably biger than the Classic both days

And 20 quid to get in not the hundreds it costs you at these so called big events.

Adn they had a drive in, bands, decent stuff to do.

It's not rocket science why the crowds were big, simple economics

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

The market will sort them out, no race organiser will do it for long for love alone.

I seem to remember that the HSCC calculated that 1 less entry per race last year would have left them looking at a loss so its hard to criticize the level of entry fees if margins are really that slim.

another way of looking at that is to say HSCC predicted the entries they'd get and costed accordingly, and predicted accurately it seems. But if there were less places to race overall they could have had FULL grids and the fees could have been a lot lower. (I haven't looked up any old entry lists - do they get full grids?)

[Heightswitch]

i think some clubs are a victim of their own organisation…

I can't race with the HSCC, Its not that I wouldn't like to, its that my car doesn't fit their regs..I deem it a good car running to the spirit of historic regs but their regs are very tight for someone like me and those regs would restrict me from doing other things with the car..As such I settled for CSCC which appear to be the most successful racing club, probably because they don't take it as seriously regards originality and have a broad spread of open (ish) rules to let everyone compete and have a good time

Some will say that it promotes hooky cars but my opinion is…Who cares!!…if people are really daft enough to spend thousands and thousands in the chasing of glass tankards then they must be crazy.

there are always people prepared to race..Its how seriously organisers want them that matters..

I have watched many championships go tits up over the years because of the pomposity of certain organising committees pushing their own agendas..

Not sure of current politics in the sport but recently falling outs seem to have happened in the AMOC, MGB Flared arch car world etc etc…when this happens people generally vote with their feet and wallets and go somewhere less boring instead!!

I am far from a purist I just like to see old stuff racing..Some of the discussions regarding originality though gets pretty juvenile at times…kids and toys??

In Geordie parlance…They're just old cars man.

N.

[zefarelly]

As I've said before, an historically correct car does protect ones investment, to a point. And you'll only end up looking a prat for trying to rewrite history.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

As I've said before, an historically correct car does protect ones investment, to a point. And you'll only end up looking a prat for trying to rewrite history.

I totally agree - if you want to enhance performance through new technology race modern cars!

[Al Weyman]

Most cars that can run with CSCC events would be allowed an invitation entry in in CTCRC events. I even run one of my cars in that class in Pre 83's as although it came out in 82 it wasn't fitted with the bigger bore engine till 85. Buts its no problem, ask the question and you will get in. I would never do HSCC in my cars as they require the early car to run 200kgs more than it left the factory and to use useless and dangerous 70's sliding caliper single pot brakes!

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I totally agree - if you want to enhance performance through new technology race modern cars!

Agreed... to a point. And that point is cost. It's all well and good to say we should all only use original period parts on our period cars, but the cost of doing so can be far higher for a given level of performance. That's fine if you have the budget, but a bit prohibitive if you don't.

What's wrong with the way a club like the CSCC does it? It's sort of 'silhouette rules', without actually going that far. The cars are, in the main, still in period as regards the main components - body/engine/appearance/no aero, but you are allowed to run modern components for systems like induction, ignition, brakes, steering, etc. What this, in effect, allows us to do is to build and race a car with a level of performance that simply wouldn't be achievable on anything like the same budget if we were forced to use only period parts.

I believe there's room in the racing market for both schools of thought. If you're dedicated to correct period spec, then you can go and race with the HSCC or CTCRC Group 1, there's plenty of choice if you want to go even further with full FIA spec, and then there's clubs like the aforementioned CSCC that allow you race something essentially old, but you won't get turned away if you turn up with Wilwood calipers fitted!

It's horses for courses, and I believe the diversity is good, up to a point. I'm not advocating being allowed to turn up to a Future Classics race in my TR7 fitted with a V8 from a 2005 M3 and expecting to be let in as it's 'a TR7 V8, mate'. There are places to race such a car, but I think calling that 'historic' would be a stretch too far!

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I totally agree - if you want to enhance performance through new technology race modern cars!

Using that philosophy would negate most App K cars

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Using that philosophy would negate most App K cars

that'd be a good start

[DaveGT6]

I've long been a fan of the CSCCs approach as it does indeed bring big and varied grids of "historic cars" to the track in their Swinging 60's series. I've seen App K cars beat cars built to the CSCC regs so draw your own conclusions. My car is App K HTP and I race with HSCC, CSCC have raced with Masters. They are all enjoyable in their own way and I think that there is a certain honesty in the less regulated approach. Let's face it this is supposed to be a hobby so we all (ostensibly) do it for fun. Old bags of bolts as one esteemed poster would say.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

I've long been a fan of the CSCCs approach as it does indeed bring big and varied grids of "historic cars" to the track in their Swinging 60's series. I've seen App K cars beat cars built to the CSCC regs so draw your own conclusions. My car is App K HTP and I race with HSCC, CSCC have raced with Masters. They are all enjoyable in their own way and I think that there is a certain honesty in the less regulated approach. Let's face it this is supposed to be a hobby so we all (ostensibly) do it for fun. Old bags of bolts as one esteemed poster would say.

Agree whole heartedly with these sentiments…

N.

[terence]

I think the Historics have too many choices of clubs, if there were less choice surely those remaining clubs would see better grids.
That would then help in keeping the entered cars more of the type they should be rather than organisers accepting any old crap just to fill thier grids as we often see.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by terence

I think the Historics have too many choices of clubs, if there were less choice surely those remaining clubs would see better grids.
That would then help in keeping the entered cars more of the type they should be rather than organisers accepting any old crap just to fill thier grids as we often see.

Even People with Crap have to race somewhere….That Crap may also be someones pride and joy!…Not everyone can afford the Latest Fia prepped car Terence..The one thing I like about the club scene is the lack of elitism !!
N

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by terence

I think the Historics have too many choices of clubs, if there were less choice surely those remaining clubs would see better grids.
That would then help in keeping the entered cars more of the type they should be rather than organisers accepting any old crap just to fill thier grids as we often see.

I basically agree with Terry. If you turn the clock back to about 2000 historic racing was very well served between VSCC, HSCC, CTCRS(?) and BRDC as non profit racing clubs and then Carol Spagg's Gentlemen Drivers, Julis Thurgood's Top Hat and later Cloth Cap with a few niche grids on the commercial side.

However times have moved on and the success of historic racing has created more choice. Everyone, myself included, said Masters would fall on their face but time has shown that they seem to grow from strength to strength. So I think we have to accept the increase of those feeding from the growth of historic racing whether they be modern preppers moving to historics or more series. When car prices stop inflating and the fast money decide boats are more fun we will see which business models are sustainable.

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by terence

I think the Historics have too many choices of clubs, if there were less choice surely those remaining clubs would see better grids.
That would then help in keeping the entered cars more of the type they should be rather than organisers accepting any old crap just to fill thier grids as we often see.

Exactly what is the 'type they should be'?

If that refers to AppK then we already know thats rubbish. AppK is supposedly how cars were raced in period - but that is only the top line and not clubbie races and seemingly UK biased not across the globe.

I refer to Mustangs (cuz thats what I know!) - in period hardly any of them ran to what is now AppK spec. Across the world they were raced in a more modded form whether it be Group 2 in Europe or TransAm/SCCA in the US and even Australia.

From what I've seen in the UK most of the current 'Mustang enthusiasts' that race run non AppK cars because they understand that is how they WERE raced in period, however, the (majority) of the AppK racers are not Mustang enthusiasts they just race them because they are front running (supposedly) cars and run to AppK because they know no better and that is the only spec that big event organisers accept.

What I'm trying to say is that the often called hot rod cars are often closer to period spec than AppK cars.

The Aussies and Yanks are much more receptive to these 'hot rod' cars as they don't suffer the tunnel vision mentality of AppK or nothing.

[Paul D]

I'm with Heightswitch and Moosehead on this one. We can't all afford to keep our race cars in tip-top pristine condition. I, like many others, do everything myself - I have to, because I simply couldn't afford to race otherwise. This means we often don't have the time, or money, to keep cars looking mint. Therefore, generally, my cars are, shall we say, less than pristine - in fact, they're probably the 'crap' to which Terence refers above. But that's OK - I know my place!

However, that really shouldn't matter - this is a hobby after all - we're not there to impress anyone, and as long as our cars are safe and fit for purpose (and I've proved that mine are over the years, as it's not often I fail to finish a race due to unreliability or breakages), then I don't see a problem. If there is a problem, then it's coming from someone else's perspective, because it's no problem for me!

We should all have a place to race, and, yes, while it's nice to see spectacular cars in showroom condition being raced - does that mean those of us who can't have cars like that should be excluded from racing altogether? Not sure how long club racing would last if we excluded all the less-than-mint cars...

[terence]

No idea where my response post went-so Ill try again.
Re any old crap wasn't a reference to to the cars themselves, more pointing at the sort-incorrect engined hotrods etcetera.
Re type:Not allowing something that does not fit in with the type of cars the series is supposed to be for to race from the same grid.
I dont care about the condition, it must be obviously race worthy otherwise it would not be on circuit in the first place.
Historics should be a great place to start but as was discuss ed quite some time ago, the younger drivers are not interested in them, yes, some do come in once racer dad has handed over the keys!
I think there are just too many series available, too many choices.
We often hear things like" Im fed up with the cars they allow in, Im going to racce with xxxxxx".Less choice would stop (or at least help) the need to go race elsewhere because the compliant cars would be of a higher number on a smaller amount of grids for thier type.

[midgetman]

We have identified the importance of capital letters. It would appear that Historic racing is a formula governed by the FIA to Appx K, while historic racing is for old cars. It is easy to mix the two up, many of the posters here take part in historic racing while others think they are talking about Historic racing. They really are two separate disciplines.

If you want period authenticity then go Historic racing, if you want a weekend with your mates rattling round in an old car you've built in the lock up then you need historic racing.

So Bauble, is there too much Historic racing or historic racing? (To get back on topic)

</pedantmode>