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Old 29 Nov 2013, 19:47 (Ref:3338284)   #26
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 20:14 (Ref:3338290)   #27
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I don't think that aspect of it will change. Those trees and the road are not on the ACO property. I would also guess that there is something behind that particular row of trees that has led to them being that close to the road.

They should re-profile Tertre Rouge so that the second apex isn't so acute. They maybe also ought to move the first apex out some, and make it tighter. In other words, make the alignment such that you're not pointed at the trees while you're in the middle of a high-speed corner; the first, and main, apex of that turn is well before that line of trees that is immediately behind the armco.

G4J, many of the old signatures of the course are gone. The old, fast Dunlop Curve taking you up the hill and straight under the bridge, then the run right down the hill, and into the Esses. Tertre Rouge used to be an intersection corner, not a fast sweep. The Mulsanne chicanes have been added. The Porsche Curves and double Ford Chicane replaced a fast run and the old Maison Blanche. In addition, the course was shortened by a few miles by 1932, so that it didn't go into, or as close to, the town itself anymore.

I don't mind the Porsche Curves. However, we didn't need another miniature version of them after the Dunlop Bridge. If the bikes needed a chicane in the Dunlop Curve, they could have provided that, but left the old corner for the cars to still use. More than one driver of significant repute has said that running 240-mph on the Mulsanne Straight is not an issue, certainly not compared to the problems created by the ultra-high cornering speeds we see on other parts of the track. Mulsanne itself was a safer corner back when it was a straight-in, straight-out affair. Finally, I'm okay with a Ford Chicane, but I think the double set of corners there before start/finish is kind of over-kill.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 20:31 (Ref:3338306)   #28
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I think there would be plenty of room to put a fairly deep tyre barrier against the Tertre Rouge armco where the row of trees start and contact is likely to be most severe. Of existing changes I always regretted the loss of the Dunlop curve and the sight of cars coming over the brow pretty well flat before plunging down to the old esses. After several drivers commented that things were feeling alarmingly light under the bridge it was perhaps very timely to modify things before something flew into the crowded fairground which was situated there at the time. Anyone who spectated at the cafe down the Mulsanne before the chicanes were added has some cherished memories.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 20:37 (Ref:3338309)   #29
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However, now there is MUCH more room around Dunlop Curve. They have greatly increased the margin compared to 1986, if they chose to re-instate the old corner there.

It's also amusing, because there would probably be many fewer tire punctures without the Mulsanne chicanes. The cars would no longer be over-cooking it and running through the gravel.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 20:51 (Ref:3338314)   #30
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Issue there is realistically they'll have to remove the whole stand of trees, and given the complexity involved in the ACO not owning that bit of track I suspect something along the lines of reprofiling the entrance and as others have suggested putting a higher tech barrier in place might be overall more likely.
I think the safer barrier will work. From what I have read the lack of deflection in the barrier due to the tree is likely to be the main problem, so installing a safer barrier system in front of the Armco will take away that issue.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 21:08 (Ref:3338322)   #31
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Everyone knows where the issue is at Tetre Rouge - so another corner re-profile isn't the answer for me.

IMO they can't go back there next year and have the barrier still wedged up against the tree. Even if they change the entry they will be criticised if that issue remains.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 22:22 (Ref:3338350)   #32
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They should move the curbing. Isn't that the curbing got wet and made Simonsen's car spin into the barrier? If they widen that turn or push the curb away it should be better. I think the two areas of concern talked about are solid walls or barriers. You hit them at speed its not pleasant to say the least!
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 23:03 (Ref:3338365)   #33
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I could well be wrong, so please don't jump on me if I am, but I thought the verdict was that the tree's proximity to the barrier caused the effect that unfortunately lead to Allan's death?

If so, isn't is just a case of remove said tree and instigate a rule that Armco must be a certain distance away from any similarly solid object? Even moving the barrier inwards and making it more narrow would seem more logical, wouldn't it?
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 23:59 (Ref:3338383)   #34
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I could well be wrong, so please don't jump on me if I am, but I thought the verdict was that the tree's proximity to the barrier caused the effect that unfortunately lead to Allan's death?

If so, isn't is just a case of remove said tree and instigate a rule that Armco must be a certain distance away from any similarly solid object? Even moving the barrier inwards and making it more narrow would seem more logical, wouldn't it?
I would think so. I don't see the need to remove the one tree since there is a whole row of them, but moving the barrier a few feet in front of the trees and then lining the barrier with tires would work.
Obviously as the track moves closer to the barrier further down as they enter the Mulsanne, tires wouldn't be practical, but as some have said, some sort of SAFER type barrier would be good, and the track isn't at such a sharp angle in relation to the barrier at this point anyway.
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 00:34 (Ref:3338397)   #35
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I don't think the French authorities are going to go for putting post holes through an active traffic lane on the Le Mans-Tours highway. In front of that row of poplars, there is no shoulder on that side of the road. A SAFER barrier will take up more width than the armco, and there really is no width to spare in that location.

So, the two main options I see are re-profiling Tertre Rouge to ease, or eliminate, that second apex, or you have to get approval to re-align that section of the highway to make more space.

I am certain that there is a reason that those poplars are there, and have been at least since World War II. There is a reason that that one strip of trees is so unusually close to the road, while none of the others around are that close. There must also be a reason why they are so evenly spaced and always so nicely kept. Whatever, or whomever, that reason is, I doubt that it will ever be a remotely easy task to get those trees removed.
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 02:12 (Ref:3338417)   #36
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I could well be wrong, so please don't jump on me if I am, but I thought the verdict was that the tree's proximity to the barrier caused the effect that unfortunately lead to Allan's death?

If so, isn't is just a case of remove said tree and instigate a rule that Armco must be a certain distance away from any similarly solid object? Even moving the barrier inwards and making it more narrow would seem more logical, wouldn't it?
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 02:40 (Ref:3338425)   #37
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G4J, many of the old signatures of the course are gone. The old, fast Dunlop Curve taking you up the hill and straight under the bridge, then the run right down the hill, and into the Esses. Tertre Rouge used to be an intersection corner, not a fast sweep. The Mulsanne chicanes have been added. The Porsche Curves and double Ford Chicane replaced a fast run and the old Maison Blanche. In addition, the course was shortened by a few miles by 1932, so that it didn't go into, or as close to, the town itself anymore.
If you look at the circuit now on a map, you unmistakably see the same circuit staring back at you as you ever have. When you compare it to other tracks, like Spa, the difference is minimal. Spa is still a great track, but it's just not what it was. Of all the great circuits raced on since the Great War, Le Mans, Monaco and Indy are the only ones which have remained the same in essence and continue to run their great race. We've lost over half of Spa Francorchamps, and what remains aren't even public roads anymore. At the Nurburgring, when either the DTM or F1 visits, an entirely different circuit is use to that of the Nordschleiffe. At Le Mans, we still have the Mulsanne Straight, we still have Indianoplis, Arnage, Mulsanne Corner, and all the various kinks, trees and inclines that have been there since 1923. It's a race on public roads over 24 hours for some of the most spectacular cars in the world. For me, that's epic. And it's precisely the same premise the race has always run under.

I've not been going to Le Mans long, only since 1998, but even in that time period the circuit has changed quite dramatically. The old esses, the old TR, the curbs at the Ford Chicane and the village in the inside of the circuit have all gone. And I miss them all dearly - but it's still Le Mans.

My point is, though, that the reason why this place is so special is due to the tireless work put in by the organisers, and I wholeheartedly appreciate it. So many things in motorsport haven't survived the post-modern era, but Le Mans has stayed the same by changing itself. They've not got all of the changes right, and I agree, it's such a shame the big race had to compromise for the bikes with the New Esses. But the attitude and philosophy of the ACO and local authorities over the past 90 years shouldn't be taken for granted. The race is really, really important for me for a variety of reasons, and it's got the same magic it's always had.
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 05:23 (Ref:3338455)   #38
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If you look at the circuit now on a map, you unmistakably see the same circuit staring back at you as you ever have. When you compare it to other tracks, like Spa, the difference is minimal. Spa is still a great track, but it's just not what it was. Of all the great circuits raced on since the Great War, Le Mans, Monaco and Indy are the only ones which have remained the same in essence and continue to run their great race. We've lost over half of Spa Francorchamps, and what remains aren't even public roads anymore. At the Nurburgring, when either the DTM or F1 visits, an entirely different circuit is use to that of the Nordschleiffe. At Le Mans, we still have the Mulsanne Straight, we still have Indianoplis, Arnage, Mulsanne Corner, and all the various kinks, trees and inclines that have been there since 1923. It's a race on public roads over 24 hours for some of the most spectacular cars in the world. For me, that's epic. And it's precisely the same premise the race has always run under.

I've not been going to Le Mans long, only since 1998, but even in that time period the circuit has changed quite dramatically. The old esses, the old TR, the curbs at the Ford Chicane and the village in the inside of the circuit have all gone. And I miss them all dearly - but it's still Le Mans.

My point is, though, that the reason why this place is so special is due to the tireless work put in by the organisers, and I wholeheartedly appreciate it. So many things in motorsport haven't survived the post-modern era, but Le Mans has stayed the same by changing itself. They've not got all of the changes right, and I agree, it's such a shame the big race had to compromise for the bikes with the New Esses. But the attitude and philosophy of the ACO and local authorities over the past 90 years shouldn't be taken for granted. The race is really, really important for me for a variety of reasons, and it's got the same magic it's always had.
Well said, I entirely agree
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 22:12 (Ref:3338756)   #39
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They cannot move the trees back. There's quite a drop off for most of that run, IIRC. I suspect they date back 200 odd years, as a certain Emporer planted them as shade for troops marching down the roads he built. I still don't see why the armco is that far back, anyway. Make sure cars don't hit head on, and run it close to the track edge?
I understand organisers worries over safety, but I look at Silverstone, where a lot of cars now pass through Woodcote FLAT, where they would definitely lift before. SO much run off, it won't hurt if you get it wrong, after all... Make run off roads, but make them COSTLY to use? That in itself slows cars down, as drivers don't like to cost the team a lap or two? Cars should NOT just drive away after a driver error, or component failure. It's an ENDURANCE race.
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