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Old 16 Dec 2001, 11:19 (Ref:186436)   #1
H16
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H16 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Joest Porsche VS Factory Porsche

Remember 1985? The Joest team beat the factory team at Le Mans with a 956. Was it a straight fight, or did the factory team have problems? I can't imagine a privateer in an older car beating the factory straight out.

Also, how was this recieved in the Porsche camp? Were they bitter that a factory car didn't win or did they take the attitude that it was still very much a Porsche victory?

Sorry, I wasn't around to watch the races in 1985...
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Old 16 Dec 2001, 13:19 (Ref:186502)   #2
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I can't really speak for '85, as I started going the year after. But don't forget, Joest might well have beaten the works Porsches in '86 as well, if the engine of the 7 Joest Porsche hadn't let go as a result of running for so long at less than normal racing termperatures under the pace car following Jo Gartner's tragic accident.
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Old 16 Dec 2001, 13:22 (Ref:186504)   #3
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It was the first year for the works 962 ( Yes I know Preston Henn ran one the year before but that was a turbo-charged hybread - not quite the real thing ) which was also beaten by Richard Lloyds 956.
The Joest car was the very same chassis that had won the race the previous year ( I reckon you could have blind folded the drivers - the car knew its way around the place so well!)
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Old 16 Dec 2001, 16:05 (Ref:186537)   #4
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85 was a fuel consumption year, seems Joest managed to make the fuel last better than Porsche and Lancia. The NewMan car also held together, the R Lloyd challange fell when there was a problem with the fuel management system, although they did retain 2nd till the end.

The factory cars had to go slower to meet the strict fuel consumption regulations, they were faster overall having fastest lap and 1, 2 & 5 on the grid. The Watson/Holbert/Schuppen car retired with a broken crankshaft, The Bell/Stuck car ran well until a couple of wheel bearings failed finishing 3rd overall. The Ickx/Mass car had a whole host of problems, the main one being a gearbox change 10th overall.

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Old 20 Dec 2001, 04:41 (Ref:187912)   #5
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The 956 model was preferred by almost any team that had either that or the newer 962 to chose from. So the works team was at a disadvantage from the start of the 86 event, but they waged a fierce battle with the Joest car until the later met it's end. Porsche was probably miffed that Joest beat them in 85, but didn't have a problem tuning to them to run the semi-works Italia car in 89.

Also remember the front radiatoried Blapunkt 962 that won the last ever world championship victory for Porsche at Dijon in 89. It was a pretty radical concept for the 962 and Joest surely had some factory help on that car. They ran the then dominant Mercedes C-9's down and beat them in a straight fight. Good work for a privateer.



Joest had favored privateer status as early as LeMans 1980 when Joest ran a "908/80. That was a 936 built from one of the original 4 frames, but labelled a "908/80" so customers couldn't gripe about not being able to buy a 936 when Joest could. Funny that should come up. I am building one right now in 1/43.


And also rememeber that Joest handled the running of the Dauer 962 GT that won in 1994.

And in 1996, Porsche entrusted Joest with the TRW chassisied Porsche LMP as a back up plan to Porsche's own 911 GT-1 program. In both 96 and 97, Joest won the race after the factory cars faultered, saving the bacon yet again for Stuggart.

So it was pretty surprising to see Joest jumping ship to Audi in 1999, but I believe that yet again, Porsche is entrusting Joest, and now Audi, to run it's sportscar program. I have been right on top- of those cars and i swear they have all the presence of a Porsche. They even look like a Porsche when they are running. It's just this errie feeling I get that Porsche is behind the whole thing.
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Old 20 Dec 2001, 04:45 (Ref:187913)   #6
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Here is the 908/80. Sure looks like a 936, doesn't it?
Attached Thumbnails
908 80.jpg  
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Old 20 Dec 2001, 11:05 (Ref:187959)   #7
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I am not really suprised with Joest jumping to Audi. Porsche withdrew as a factory after 1998, and Audi and Porsche have a close working relationship, evidence by thier new SUV (not much difference between them, engine aside).

I have a hunch that after Porsche return (which conviently enough might come after Audi quit) we will see Porsche and Joest together again. Remember though, that Joest has not always had full Porsche backing, with the 96 and 97 wins coming along with semi Porsche support. Although I think in 1998 the team was entered as Porsche AG Team Joest.
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Old 20 Dec 2001, 13:10 (Ref:187980)   #8
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Although I think in 1998 the team was entered as Porsche AG Team Joest.
I think that's right. The works were looking for a bit more of the kudos if Joest managed three in a row - with the Jaguar, of course!! Interesting that the car, modified from that which won in 96-97, had been modified and never looked like repeating the feat in 98.
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Old 20 Dec 2001, 13:45 (Ref:188001)   #9
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Yes, I always thought that old TWR/Jag had the most interesting life of any car out there, at least in the last decade.

It was raced to the WSC in 1991 with a Ford Cosworth in the back of it, then repainted and repowered by fellow Ford comapny Mazda in 1992, then taken over by Porsche and tested but not raced in 1995, then loaned out to Joest, which won the 96 and 97 Le Mans with it. By the team 1998 rolled around, I doubt there was much of the old Group C Jag from which it started, and unusally Joest were uncompetitive and both cars DNFd.

About the "908", yes it looks totally like the 936. Same product/different package.
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Old 20 Dec 2001, 13:49 (Ref:188005)   #10
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...then repainted and repowered by fellow Ford comapny Mazda in 1992
But wasn't that 1992 Mazda/Jag/Ford a fantastic looking car? I always loved that orange and green Renown/Charge colour-scheme on the Mazdas, but on that car (designated a MXR01 wasn't it?), they looked sensational. And the way it was driven by Volker Weidler during the first few laps - well, he certainly managed to rattle Derek Warwick's cage!!

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Old 20 Dec 2001, 14:07 (Ref:188009)   #11
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I don't know, I was always iffy about the Mazda color schemes. In the crazy way these things work out, it was Mazda who managed to oust the all pink Jaguar/Ford a final Le Mans win in 1991, as the Mazda finished ahead of three Jags. Then they end up running that car the next year...

Ford must have been busing in Group C, they bought Mazda, Jag, and Aston Martin, all of whom had interest. Sadly, the Astons were canned virtually as soon as the ink on the contract dried.

In Andretti's new book, there is a good picture of the Porsche WSC95 TWR/Jag/Mazda in the final pages, and Mario said that he felt the car was too underdeveloped to be competitive. Then it won Le Mans two years in a row.
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