Defining "Classic Cars" - in NZ

[socram]

I am not re-starting the age old debate as to what is a classic, but as far as racing one in NZ is concerned, it is good to debate the current situation, as it affects production or low volume cars, not single seaters.

Currently, we have the option of a "pure" period car, that conforms to either the FIA Appendix K or the local, Schedule K. There is no problem with this as no-one can object to an older car that is exactly as it always was.

Outside of that purity, there are major perception issues and practicalities of running a less than pure car and in an attempt to basically ring-fence the fact that many so called classics had drifted, rules were drawn up that were supposed to make it practical and workable to race a car, that to all intents and purposes was still a classic. This was the point and purpose of the "T & C" rules or document.

However, there are areas where opinions differ as to what should or should not be allowed to race at a classic meeting and should therefore be consigned to run with Subarus, Mitsi Evo and Honda Vtecs at club meetings.

Although I have data to support my opinion that Schedule K/Appendix K has not been accepted by too many drivers of saloons/GTs/sports cars, in NZ, T & C has not been totally embraced by the majority of successful NZ North Island racers either.

So to get the debate rolling, this is how I see it, based on any car, lets say 25 years old - simplistic version...

1) Does it look like a Classic or look original (paintwork and maybe period style alloy wheels excepted!)

a) If no - problem solved, go to club racing!

b) If yes, then there are just three relevant questions and it must therefore be considered as a classic.

2

a) Is it totally pure? If yes, then Appendix/Schedule K - no problem

b) If no, then is it built of of period parts? (ie everything major, engine, gearbox, etc. is what was available 25 years ago.) If no, then go club racing

c) If yes, then it has to be classified as a classic.

That is the simplistic version. To quote one commission member, you wouldn't want someone sticking a Jap rotary engine in an Austin Seven.

Correct. But the onus is then on series or meeting organisers to state what cars may or may not run at their events. I firmly believe that it is not the commission's right to interfere at a lower level than that.

That it is because as soon as you start meddling at a micro level that you can get so bogged down that you can't see the wood for the trees.

As an example, T & C requires "All original exterior trim must be fitted." This level of detail is counter productive and I say this from experience. I can now get one part of the missing trim from the front wings for my (older) car, but if you think I am going to spend UK 300 pounds for each side for bits of missing external trim that some over enthusiastic Wally is going to destroy when he underestimates the width of his car, then think again! The remaining trim also for the wings is another 50 pounds per side. The older our fleet gets, the less likely we are going to risk damaging hard to source parts, whether that is exterior trim or even steel panels.

Anyway, I throw the debate open.

[Woolley]

A mate of mine in Gisborne defines 'Classic' as anything older than 20 years and not built in Japan!

I realise that doesn't add anything to your post, but it made me laugh at the time.

[raymond]

Would be good to get some feedback on Ray's ideas. Help to formulate the planning moving forward.

Woolley; when I was a youngster and working as a grid marshall at Manfield, during the first Whittakers Classic Meeting the chief grid marshall announced over the Loudspeaker when he was calling up the next field.
Quote "Will all competitors in the Japanese Sports Cars race please come to the dummy grid...hell; thats an oxymoron if ever I've heard one!"

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by raymond

Would be good to get some feedback on Ray's ideas. Help to formulate the planning moving forward.

Woolley; when I was a youngster and working as a grid marshall at Manfield, during the first Whittakers Classic Meeting the chief grid marshall announced over the Loudspeaker when he was calling up the next field.
Quote "Will all competitors in the Japanese Sports Cars race please come to the dummy grid...hell; thats an oxymoron if ever I've heard one!"

A shame that's your view. Still, as long as they keep paying their license fees, who cares? Certainly not MSNZ.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Club racer

A shame that's your view. Still, as long as they keep paying their license fees, who cares? Certainly not MSNZ.

My view was the first sentence when I stated it would be good to get some feedback. Is that a shame???

As for the anti-MSNZ statement; dont infect this positive discussion with that, do it elsewhere.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by raymond

My view was the first sentence when I stated it would be good to get some feedback. Is that a shame???

As for the anti-MSNZ statement; dont infect this positive discussion with that, do it elsewhere.

Agreed, no need for this thread to get like the others.

[RogerH]

A classic car is a car that existed in period in a particular configuration. Today this may accommodate such cars as (for example) an Escort 1100 properly converted into a Twin Cam Escort on the basis that a Twin Cam Escort existed in period.

The cars that Ray is concerned about is a potentially classic car that is modified today into a configuration that could have existed in period (but most probably did not). This includes non-marque mechanical transplants.

These cars are already catered for in MSNZ regulations under Schedule CR as a "Retrospective Special" - which is defined as "... a car built for racing events which by its design, silhouette and manufacture has created a vehicle that could have been first manufactured in a previous era ...".

Accordingly, there appears no need to introduce new regulations. "Pure" classic cars are catered for and classic/hybrids are catered for. The problem is that most event organisers do not want to accept the classic/hybrids at their classic meetings so they are essentially orphans. Changing the rules to reclassify these cars as some sort of compliant classic car is not the way to go in my opinion.

[socram]

Originally Posted by RogerH

These cars are already catered for in MSNZ regulations under Schedule CR as a "Retrospective Special" - which is defined as "... a car built for racing events which by its design, silhouette and manufacture has created a vehicle that could have been first manufactured in a previous era ...".

Accordingly, there appears no need to introduce new regulations. "Pure" classic cars are catered for and classic/hybrids are catered for. The problem is that most event organisers do not want to accept the classic/hybrids at their classic meetings so they are essentially orphans. Changing the rules to reclassify these cars as some sort of compliant classic car is not the way to go in my opinion.

CR only applies to single seaters or "cars built for racing events". Sadly, it does not cover saloons, particularly road-going cars!

Whilst the onus rests on either meeting or race series organisers, it is incorrect to say that current race organisers do not want to accept them. Only TACCOC's "pure" meeting and the Festival (arguably - did I see Clark Proctor's Escort, Nissan powered?) are not happy with them. TACCOC's "series race meeting" accepts cars that those series accept and we have had a rule in place for several years that allows a maximum of 5 retro/hybrids with certain conditions, including the fact that they are fully road registered.

Contrary to what some pundits stated at the time, we have NOT been swamped with "hot rods". What we have been swamped with are a load of Ford Capris with V8s masquerading as Perana's, allowable, because in period, South Africa produced a V8 Capri.

Not allowing Jo' Hill's well campaigned Herald V8 for a bit of variety because they didn't build one in period, is to me, somewhat short sighted. They built Brabham Climax powered Heralds, so they would be legal, but just because a specific shell/engine combination wasn't built in period seems to me to be a bit of selective thinking.

Raymond wants responses, because at the moment, I seem to be the only one who is actually building a car that some people are obviously against. Most are put off by the existing MSNZ/T & C rules although they'll do it for a street car. There are several cars locally with "transplants" but they are not interested in using them in competition. There are many Jags with Chev engines, Stags with Rover engines, Morris Minors with Fiat Twin cams and so on.

With Tier one concentrating on just a few makes, it loses a lot of its appeal; the very thing that Classics offer is the variety. This thread is no more than a discussion forum that goes beyond the one vote per club model and allows an opportunity for the H & C Commission to gain a wider range of opinions from a wider range of people.

Talk to any Kiwi about their favourite track cars of the past and they rarely mention a standard car. They'll rave about Zephyr Corvettes and such like, not bog standard Austin 1100s - although there is a photograph of a group of cars racing at Pukekohe on our gym wall, with a very standard looking Austin 1100...

[raymond]

Originally Posted by raymond

Would be good to get some feedback on Ray's ideas. Help to formulate the planning moving forward.

Woolley; when I was a youngster and working as a grid marshall at Manfield, during the first Whittakers Classic Meeting the chief grid marshall announced over the Loudspeaker when he was calling up the next field.
Quote "Will all competitors in the Japanese Sports Cars race please come to the dummy grid...hell; thats an oxymoron if ever I've heard one!"

Club racer; I see where I might have confused you. The whole last sentence was a quote. Maybe I should have put "end quote" after...if ever I've heard one!

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by socram

CR only applies to single seaters or "cars built for racing events". Sadly, it does not cover saloons, particularly road-going cars!

Yes - you are correct - I was thinking about the Schedule CR provision that covered saloons but this was dropped by MSNZ in the most recent version of the Manual. However, the Replica and Retrospective Special provisions are not just limited to single seaters as they also cover sports racing cars - in the previous Manual they also covered two seater sports cars (presumably including road cars) but this has also been dropped.

From these recent amendments to Schedule CR it seems MSNZ are moving away from having the hybrid "classic" cars included as being Classic compliant.

[Goat Boy]

The A40's with the droopy nose, is that an original part? I've seen at least three of them.

[Swedish Brick]

In period modification. Along with bread van Anglias.

Lol at racing a stock 1100!

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

In period modification. Along with bread van Anglias.

And Sabrina headlights

[socram]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Lol at racing a stock 1100!

I must take a pic when I am fit enough to return to the gym, as it is an excellent picture and features various very standard looking cars - taken from the rear, which is probably why the 1100 is so prominent.

Thinking about it more seriously though, there is no reason whatever that slower saloons shouldn't be racing, but the ACES class for cars lapping Pukekohe slower than 1:20 hasn't taken off, yet 1:20 was a race winning time (Lotus Cortina) when I first raced the trusty Allegro Equipe in 1985!

I am still somewhat confused by Clark Proctor's Escort at the Hulme, as he sold the Ford V8 Escort to Gordon Burr and that is an accepted historic saloon.

His other Escort, I believe is powered by a Nissan engine, so how come that car can race at a festival where purity is so valued yet my car with period engine is effectively barred from classic racing? Maybe the mighty dollar and sponsorship signs at the track mean that the rules don't count for the rich?

This is not sour grapes either, as our series promising good grids has never been invited to compete as we run outside of T & C, yet we get cars like that and also a field of E30 BMW's that are also outside T & C, racing (BMW sponsored last year's festival.. As I said earlier, it is up to race organisers to decide who runs and who doesn't so T & C doesn't really count, even at a high profile meeting such as this, but it does have an impact when the commission can't accept a road going saloon built out of peried parts, hence the debate.

For the record, I am more than happy to see the Proctor Escort racing, but it wouldn't be accepted in our series!

[Swedish Brick]

Allergo?! Hehe.

Yeah I do recall seeing pics of old racing where there is all sorts of things we like to laugh at nowdays.
Ah well at least they were giving it a go!

How does classic racing cater for those with a period car who cant afford a period engine? Say someone wanting an RS1600 but can't afford a BDA but can afford a 4AGE?

[socram]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

How does classic racing cater for those with a period car who cant afford a period engine? Say someone wanting an RS1600 but can't afford a BDA but can afford a 4AGE?

As our series is effectively for pre 1977 European cars, then we'd accept a period transplanted Euro engine, but not a Jap engine in a Euro car. I am assuming you are suggesting a Toyota engine into an Escort bodyshell? There are plenty of period Ford engines without going to a BDA.

They just happen to be our rules. I presume the Classic Japanese series wouldn't be too keen either!

What many people fail to understand (or accept) is that within Classic racing, with the diversity of cars (and driver ability) it is definitely not about winning. Our series is well established and known for only running handicap races for the points, so the driver with a 1300cc Escort has an equal chance of winning against an XJ6 Jaguar or MGB V8. You don't need a BDA. If you are intent on winning, then Club Racing is where you belong and not in classics, where the criteria are enjoyment, participation and camaradarie. There are many competitors with race budgets lower than the beer budget in other categories.

[Point2]

So since I dont own a "classic"
I guess I will have to race my classy 1986 AE82 NZGT corolla in the classic Japanese race series.
classic!

[socram]

Originally Posted by Point2

So since I dont own a "classic"
I guess I will have to race my classy 1986 AE82 NZGT corolla in the classic Japanese race series.
classic!

We started off as a BMC 4 cylinder series, 27 years ago. The series has developed over the years to encompass all Euro cars, but we did allow in Datsun 240Zs before the classic Japanese series got off the ground. That is not to rubbish Japanese cars, but the idea of having a series for a specific group has many positives.

We don't allow Historic Muscle cars either, because they too have their own series. Your post is taken that we somehow look down on Japanese cars, ("I guess I will have to..." ) but that is not the case. So what is your problem, racing with Japanese Classics?

There is currently a place in NZ Classic Motorsport for just about any older saloon car - except one built out of period parts.

[Point2]

No problems at all.
I can run with the following classes

Ss2000
NZGT
Classic Japanese
All comers

Plenty of places to go and play.