Race Marshal Manning Levels

[Dave Brand]

An interesting little piece on race marshal manning levels in the "News From the MSA" section of the November 2010 issue of "The Marshal".

Commenting on the overmanning at certain meetings the comment is made that "organisers are going to have to start looking at imposing maximums for certain meetings".

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

An interesting little piece on race marshal manning levels in the "News From the MSA" section of the November 2010 issue of "The Marshal".

Yep, saw that too. Sounds good to me....the only thing missing, I think, is that we should make allowances for new marshals at the popular meetings, to encourage people to get started. Something along the lines of.... if you're a trainee and you've done fewer than 4 'popular' meetings, then you're not turned away (notwithstanding safety concerns).

[M Greenslade]

"organisers are going to have to start looking at imposing maximums for certain meetings".

In these days where us old farts are sometimes all there is at a race meeting, then nice problem to have!

Bladders....

[Sparky-steve]

this old chestnut again

i wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

I wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

Now that I do agree with.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

i wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

It seems simple to me. The chief marshal knows how many posts there are at the circuit concered and his /her experience knows how many marshals are required to SAFELY occupy the posts. Add to that ONE trainee per post (maybe two if the track area covered by a post is sufficiently large enough) all selected on a first come first served basis and there you have it, a circuit fully and safely manned.

Post manning numbers (and experience) levels are not confined to big meetings. At one meeting in the not too distant past I found myself (an I/O) acting post chief with a course marshal who was asked to flag for the first time and two trainees, one on his first day and the other having done 3 days.
Fortunatly (and thankfully)we only had a few spinners all day.

[craig hope]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

this old chestnut again

i wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

Thats easy local marshals first... the rest on first come bases

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by craig hope

Thats easy local marshals first... the rest on first come bases

Someone had to say it didn't they lol! Seriously tho what makes a local any more deserving than a marshal who follows a series? You could say that the marshal who follows a specific series is more committed to it than a local and has better knowledge of championship regs, where as the local obviously has more knowledge of the circuit. For example I've done 90% of meetings at Donington this season at a cost of several hundreds of pounds in food, fuel etc. But I've also done all 10 BTCC rounds at a cost of close to if not slightly over a grand when you add in wear and tear on my car, accommodation, fuel, food etc.

The only fair way to limit numbers is to do it in a similar way to the GP and say we need so many people in each grade and either do a selection process or do a first come first served basis and simply close applications (like BARC do) when you have enough volunteers.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by craig hope

Thats easy local marshals first... the rest on first come bases

That's spectacularly unfair, as has been said before.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by craig hope

Thats easy local marshals first... the rest on first come bases

[Stuart Hill]

oh my, this has been fun reading again, after all these years.

trouble is, after just one fun day @ Oulton Park, so many of the basic points still exist:

Poor Flagging,
Non Inclusive on-post briefing (Flaggies not involved)
Flaggie left to walk-the-track between sessions, even though Incident were swapping-round.............. but.............. Good News!!!!

without exception, ALL the competitors in the Mini Fest (even those driving BMW's) not only acknowledged the Marshals but actually obeyed ALL flags, even my very vigorously-waved White flag.

maybe there is hope for us all.

[lawnmowerman]

ermmm....excuse me....forgive me if i am wrong....? but i thought we were ALL volunteers ? offering our assistance for free....even during these tough times where overtime comes in handy to pay bills etc....but no, i'll go marshalling and give a helping hand.....just a thought....oh and like someone has already said....i wouldnt like to be the one who decides who is marshalling and who is not ? good luck and the way things are going, i am seriously considering renewing my membership for 2011 cos i am fed up with all those who think they are "Special" ! REMEMBER.....WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS !

[gravel_monkey]

Originally Posted by lawnmowerman

ermmm....excuse me....forgive me if i am wrong....? but i thought we were ALL volunteers ? offering our assistance for free....even during these tough times where overtime comes in handy to pay bills etc....but no, i'll go marshalling and give a helping hand.....just a thought....oh and like someone has already said....i wouldnt like to be the one who decides who is marshalling and who is not ? good luck and the way things are going, i am seriously considering renewing my membership for 2011 cos i am fed up with all those who think they are "Special" ! REMEMBER.....WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS !

old thing gettin re-done, no one thinks there special
just another reason why people wont do touring cars as you get there and are linking arms all the way round the track with people you have never seen in yourlife and prob wont see again. as said this can be more dangerous as if something happens you have no were to go

[Woolley]

Not quite sure what kicked that off, but no need to throw your teddies out

An over-manned circuit can be just as, if not more dangerous than, an under-manned one. When those volunteers become a surfeit at certain meetings then a selection criteria is needed and some poor person has to do the selecting. It's done for the GP and for Goodwood, don't see why it shouldn't be the case for certain other meetings.

As long as the criteria is fair and transparent and the unsuccesful volunteers are notified in good time to do something else then there's no reason why there should be any problems.

Happily all the meetings that suffer from this are high on my 'don't want to do them' list, so I can look on it dispassionately.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Woolley

An over-manned circuit can be just as, if not more dangerous than, an under-manned one. When those volunteers become a surfeit at certain meetings then a selection criteria is needed and some poor person has to do the selecting. It's done for the GP and for Goodwood, don't see why it shouldn't be the case for certain other meetings.

As long as the criteria is fair and transparent and the unsuccesful volunteers are notified in good time to do something else then there's no reason why there should be any problems.

Precisely.

Plus, working an overmanned circuit is incredibly boring, as there's always somebody else doing your bit. I still haven't gotten over doing a 350 mile round trip at my own expense to what turned out to be a severely overmanned meeting last year, to spend all day flagging the qualis, only to be told to stand down half the time on race day 'cus "we're here now"

(That wasn't actually 'said,' but it may as well have been)

[PVDA]

Some tracks down here encourage year round support by only offering a position at thier V8Supercar round to those who have done a couple of smaller events in the 12 months prior.

You find there's 20 to a post at the V8's but we're lucky to get two per post at the smaller events by limiting numbers you don't get overcrowding of the posts and it encourages many to make the trip to the smaller stuff as well.

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by PVDA

You find there's 20 to a post at the V8's but we're lucky to get two per post at the smaller events by limiting numbers you don't get overcrowding of the posts and it encourages many to make the trip to the smaller stuff as well.

And there was us thinking this was a 'British Problem'!!

It is good to hear that marshal numbers are on the up for these bigger meetings, but I do like the approach suggest by PVDA...

Originally Posted by PVDA

some tracks down here encourage year round support by only offering a position at thier V8Supercar round to those who have done a couple of smaller events in the 12 months prior.

...although how this is balanced against the Migratory Marshals who stick to a series and follow it, I am not sure.

Maybe the answer is to say "you can do this series 'X' event if you have done at least three series 'X' in the last 12 months, or have done 'Y' events at the track where 'X' is visiting in the same period" <- seems fair to both the 'local to track' marshals and the 'series following marshals'.

Interestingly, no-one makes any objections/comments to the 'qualifying' that is required for F1 weekends? Why should that be any different to other major series (BTCC, WTCC, FIA events)?

As others have said, and will no doubt say again, it is a tricky one to solve and not a challenge that I wish to take on, but at least we can give it a damn good thrashing on the forum.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

although how this is balanced against the Migratory Marshals who stick to a series and follow it, I am not sure.

We don't get too many marshals travelling out of state for V8 events although many will do all the rounds in thier home state (here in Victoria we have 3 stand alone V8 rounds plus the F1GP support race).

I have to say a local trackside official is probably better than a series blow in who may know the cars but may not know the local conditions as well as the locals do, after all all cars are the same when they're upside down and on fire

There is an annual migration to events like Bathurst and the Adelaide, Gold Coast & Townsville Street circuits but these events require heaps more trackside officials than a normal "road" course circuits.

[Piglet]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...highlight=btcc

Just by way of reminder, that's the most recent version of this thread...

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Just by way of reminder, that's the most recent version of this thread...

That's a discussion of one specific meeting.

Silly me, I thought it worth a new thread as the debate has been broadened by the MSA stating that the organisers of popular meetings, not just BTCC, are going to have to address the problem.

[HairyDJ]

Yes we are volunteers, but we indicate our availability for a meeting in the hope that we are required and selected. We should never view the volunteering form as a demand for free admittance to an event that we fancy.

I'd like to see the "over-subscribed" meetings turn the numbers to great advantage via training using mentors. This could be offered to all grades looking to understand more about the duties in grades above their current level.
Most folk will step up to IO or PC to help out at a "short" meeting and do their best based on how they've seen others do the job. To have a spare IO or PC who is willing to spend the day standing with a few of us and talk in depth about how and why all of the minutiae of running a post happen as they do would be excellent.
In particular, nowadays we so rarely get the chance to coach / be coached on the finer points of flagging in the live environment. To be able to man the flag point and still have a "flagging god / goddess" standing back to pass on their expertise could improve standards significantly. So often you flag alone and even if manned as a pair, your partner has their own workload and is looking the other way to you & your role.
Finally, at these over-manned meetings, is it only Incident that gets swamped, or do the Specialist duties get equally increased numbers? I've helped out on Pits & Assembly occasionally, but never thought that these meetings are ideal to learn more by shadowing one of the regular crew ......


If you feel hard done by about the marshal selection process, then see how abrupt and demanding the Olympic volunteer site shows their attitude to be!
http://www.london2012.com/get-involv...nt-journey.php
They have publicised that they will have to whittle down the 240,000 applicants to a mere 70,000 places - worse than a one in three chance of getting asked!

[deley]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Yes we are volunteers, but we indicate our availability for a meeting in the hope that we are required and selected. We should never view the volunteering form as a demand for free admittance to an event that we fancy.
..........

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

........
I'd like to see the "over-subscribed" meetings turn the numbers to great advantage via training using mentors. This could be offered to all grades looking to understand more about the duties in grades above their current level.
Most folk will step up to IO or PC to help out at a "short" meeting and do their best based on how they've seen others do the job. To have a spare IO or PC who is willing to spend the day standing with a few of us and talk in depth about how and why all of the minutiae of running a post happen as they do would be excellent.
In particular, nowadays we so rarely get the chance to coach / be coached on the finer points of flagging in the live environment. To be able to man the flag point and still have a "flagging god / goddess" standing back to pass on their expertise could improve standards significantly. So often you flag alone and even if manned as a pair, your partner has their own workload and is looking the other way to you & your role.

...........

Give the man a medal for a constructive view of what could be achieved at "over-subscribed" meetings ... use them as a means to do some very useful on post and even off post training - great idea. After all a key part of being a marshal is not just "being there" but "being there to learn and to teach" ........ we should never stop learning and should always be willing to help teach for the good of marshalling and motorsport in general.

[Paul Newns]

As has been said already, I wouldn't want to be the one doing the selection. Do you only choose circuit regulars as a reward for supporting the smaller meetings, which means marshals wanting to visit other circuits are discouranged because, with respect, travelling hundreds of miles for a smaller, possibly one day meeting is not that attractive for many. Or do you welcome visitors, at the risk of alienating regulars?

There was a time when you only got accepted at a TOCA event if you could do both days. Perhaps that is a reaonable criterion?

The GP and Goodwood are different. The GP requires the most experienced marshals because it is our showcase event. Goodwood doesn't have other regular meetings, although I realise there are sprints, etc.

It's a very difficult balancing act, but some meetings are so oversubscibed that they do border on being dangerous. If a car was to go over the barriers there are too many targets and too few escape routes.

There's also the spectacle of hordes of marshals descending on a car unneccesarily, which looks bad to spectators and TV viewers.

I agree large meetings can be used as training opportunities, utilising experienced marshals to mentor trainees. I have done this myself when there have been three flaggies on post. However, there are only so many trainers that you can use, so this may not completely solve the problem.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

As has been said already, I wouldn't want to be the one doing the selection. Do you only choose circuit regulars as a reward for supporting the smaller meetings, which means marshals wanting to visit other circuits are discouranged because, with respect, travelling hundreds of miles for a smaller, possibly one day meeting is not that attractive for many. Or do you welcome visitors, at the risk of alienating regulars?

Any meeting that's oversubscribed is classified as a 'popular' meeting. At any popular meeting, you first select the people who've done the most 'regular' meetings (regardless of location). Simples!

People who do plenty of clubbie meetings (regardless of which circuit they do it at) are thus 'rewarded' - as lawnmowerman ranted, people who stick to one circuit all the time are NOT any more special than people who do the same number of meetings at differing circuits.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Yes we are volunteers, but we indicate our availability for a meeting in the hope that we are required and selected. We should never view the volunteering form as a demand for free admittance to an event that we fancy.

I'd like to see the "over-subscribed" meetings turn the numbers to great advantage via training using mentors. This could be offered to all grades looking to understand more about the duties in grades above their current level.
Most folk will step up to IO or PC to help out at a "short" meeting and do their best based on how they've seen others do the job. To have a spare IO or PC who is willing to spend the day standing with a few of us and talk in depth about how and why all of the minutiae of running a post happen as they do would be excellent.
In particular, nowadays we so rarely get the chance to coach / be coached on the finer points of flagging in the live environment. To be able to man the flag point and still have a "flagging god / goddess" standing back to pass on their expertise could improve standards significantly. So often you flag alone and even if manned as a pair, your partner has their own workload and is looking the other way to you & your role.
Finally, at these over-manned meetings, is it only Incident that gets swamped, or do the Specialist duties get equally increased numbers? I've helped out on Pits & Assembly occasionally, but never thought that these meetings are ideal to learn more by shadowing one of the regular crew ......


If you feel hard done by about the marshal selection process, then see how abrupt and demanding the Olympic volunteer site shows their attitude to be!
http://www.london2012.com/get-involv...nt-journey.php
They have publicised that they will have to whittle down the 240,000 applicants to a mere 70,000 places - worse than a one in three chance of getting asked!

I mentioned this in the thread regarding the last BTCC meeting at Brands Hatch. The silence was deafening!
IMO, priority should go to the locals, who loyaly turn up week after week despite what meeting it is, then trainees (2 per post) then gypsys, like myself, who have no loyalty!
It shouldn't be too difficult to organise, just needs a bit of communication between the organisers and those who chief marshal the different circuits (Mildred, Peter Rodwell etc).