[WEC Race] 6 Hours of Portimao [Race Thread]

[Adam43]

I was getting a little sleepy near the end. I didn’t really see a great problem with the yellow near the end.

Corvette wins again! Ferrari right with them at the end. Iron Dames strong at the beginning and still a podium towards the end.

LMP2 was good as normal. United dominating with a 1-2.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Feels kinda controversial?

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-default-mode/

They (fia) should clarify how long a car must run for adequate data. Seems a little strange to me but I think the sensors failing is the bigger issue.

[Hedley Verity]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I was getting a little sleepy near the end. I didn’t really see a great problem with the yellow near the end.

Corvette wins again! Ferrari right with them at the end. Iron Dames strong at the beginning and still a podium towards the end.

LMP2 was good as normal. United dominating with a 1-2.

There was no issue with the safety car being called, but if you’re going to have a safety car to allow the safe removal of a car then waving cars past to run at speed to get round to the back of the queue while marshals are still working at the side of the track defeats the object

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Toyota are certainly favorites until the others catch up.

But it's a BoP class?

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But it's a BoP class?

The Hypercar BOP this year is about potential performance and not achieved performance. It is up to the teams to reach the potential performance and Toyota obviously is close to that than the new teams.

Obviously as we have 2 different platforms the data could be slightly off which we will not find out until a few more races run. And I like that they do not make changes so it deters teams from sandbagging
Also the fact that Ferrari, Porsche and Cadillac are relatively close to one another makes me think the BOP is not bad.

If it was about achieved performance, all cars would have been boped down to the Peugeot, Glick and Vanwall level - which is what happened last 2 years

Why is there an expectations that even in a BOP class , new cars will be immediately on the pace with low mileage and brand new racing teams? - even in GT3 new manufacturers struggle! Evo versions of cars do not count as they are based on existing running models.

Even in DPI Acura struggled at the beginning to be on the pace , Mazda required massive help to make changes and the Nissan struggled as well compared to the Cadillacs that were well established.

[Simmi]

I'm torn on this - as I completely get not rushing into it during the opening rounds.

However going into the 100th anniversary Le Mans, with a BoP formula, and knowing Toyota will drive away again unless something breaks, seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.

IMO there's no way LMDh's don't get a group boost post Spa. I just don't see how the hypercar adjustments shake out when you have one dominant car within a platform.

[PhilipR]

The thing is Le Mans is such a particular track that some cars that struggle now could be way faster at Le Mans - which is why making rush changes would be wrong in my opinion (remember Ganassi in 2016??)

What would work would be a test day at Le mans in mid May and give 1 month time to review and maybe make small adjustments to the BOP

Also no manufacturer/team are complaining about BOP yet which makes me think it is on the right path

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Why is there an expectations that even in a BOP class , new cars will be immediately on the pace with low mileage and brand new racing teams? - even in GT3 new manufacturers struggle! Evo versions of cars do not count as they are based on existing running models.

A question I've already asked myself many times...

As Darth might have said, 'The desire to see Toyota beaten is strong in this one........ '

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

The Hypercar BOP this year is about potential performance and not achieved performance. It is up to the teams to reach the potential performance and Toyota obviously is close to that than the new teams.

Obviously as we have 2 different platforms the data could be slightly off which we will not find out until a few more races run. And I like that they do not make changes so it deters teams from sandbagging
Also the fact that Ferrari, Porsche and Cadillac are relatively close to one another makes me think the BOP is not bad.

If it was about achieved performance, all cars would have been boped down to the Peugeot, Glick and Vanwall level - which is what happened last 2 years

Why is there an expectations that even in a BOP class , new cars will be immediately on the pace with low mileage and brand new racing teams? - even in GT3 new manufacturers struggle! Evo versions of cars do not count as they are based on existing running models.

Even in DPI Acura struggled at the beginning to be on the pace , Mazda required massive help to make changes and the Nissan struggled as well compared to the Cadillacs that were well established.

But what you're describing isn't BoP - it's EoT, which is what we had before. The very fact that the FIA makes adjustments to the BoP is an example of this. The potential of the car hasn't changed. They adjust on the actual performance. This is how BoP works, and how the WECs BoP in the GTE classes has historically worked. This is what opens up BoP to gaming (see Ferraris sandbags with the GT). If you're adjusting on potential, then Ford would never have been able to sandbag. Adjustments were done on performance.

What we have here is an EoT system, called a BoP system, in an attempt to get manufacturers to join cheaply and be promised the shot at wins.

[rdjones]

I have feeling that come Le Mans both Porsche and maybe Peugeot will be more competitive as they will all want to win the 100th anniversary Le Mans.

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But what you're describing isn't BoP - it's EoT, which is what we had before. The very fact that the FIA makes adjustments to the BoP is an example of this. The potential of the car hasn't changed. They adjust on the actual performance. This is how BoP works, and how the WECs BoP in the GTE classes has historically worked. This is what opens up BoP to gaming (see Ferraris sandbags with the GT). If you're adjusting on potential, then Ford would never have been able to sandbag. Adjustments were done on performance.

What we have here is an EoT system, called a BoP system, in an attempt to get manufacturers to join cheaply and be promised the shot at wins.

Maybe is EOT more than BOP, but I like this approach. When someone challenges Toyota and beats them will be on merit and not because the Toyota's were slowed down (as with the Rebellions and last year with the Alpine)

On your last point, I think the issue is selling to teams that they can design and bring whatever they like and be competitive - Peugeot is proving that just being funky does not mean you will be competitive. There is a reason racing car designs have been similar for decades
I would not mind Peugeot being slower than the Toyota but slightly faster than the new cars as they already have 5 or more races under their belt, but being slower than the other manufacturers is a concern as Ferrari, Porsche and Cadillac will develop further

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Also no manufacturer/team are complaining about BOP yet which makes me think it is on the right path

There's actually a gagging rule in place by the ACO not to publicly complain about BoP in interviews. That might read like a joke but it's not.

[PhilipR]

I would imagine Ferrari, Porsche or Cadillac would immediately complain about BOP if they think it was wrong, especially to the media to put pressure on the ACO

TBH ACO needs these manufacturers, after 5 years with only Toyota they would not dare mess up Ferrari and others and they need these manufacturers to give credibility to their rule set

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

I would imagine Ferrari, Porsche or Cadillac would immediately complain about BOP if they think it was wrong, especially to the media to put pressure on the ACO

Which is why there is a gagging order.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But it's a BoP class?

Call it BoPP and I think everyone would get it. Balance of potential performance. Which is not far off what they’ve always been trying to do with EoT etc…

The fans moan BoP isn’t proper racing, so the ACO give us something that still rewards engineering, skill, experience, development.
Maybe they haven’t quite got it right. At this early stage it is difficult to tell. Fans moan that the constant changing of BoP is a joke so they don’t knee jerk after every session. And fans now call that a joke.

They can’t win.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Which is why there is a gagging order.

It’s not like a legal gagging order though. They’ve been asked to not discuss it. As expressed by Graham Goodwin, if there was a major problem it would get out.

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2023/...r-sebring.html

And here’s another article on how it is being used.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ore-stability/

[RL17]

Great race by recent standards and LMP2 great racing (will be missed). Probably routing for Caddy's now at Spa and Le Mans. (probably best to forget about AML in AM after another very bad race - no need for flags at LM this year).

Eurosport coverage -

commentators just did not explain anything on Safety car drive around - bit of opt out

fairly inane prerecorded sessions OK but why go to one just as most HY cars are pitting?

Energy graphic takes up too much screen - if have number% why have long bar charts too. For pitstops around 2hr point it was up for ages and had no idea what time gaps were before, during or after pitstop round for HY cars. Very bad

The Energy graphic was also very unreliable as assumes every body has 100% after every pitstop (as shows usage up to a max amount and so runs down to the max amount you can use during next stint). The underfuelled Porsche (6) was showing 30% before fuel sensor came on and the splash and dash near the end (then showed 57% or something when every body else 10 to 25% or so)

If all the LMP2 drivers can see the average lap time per stint live during the race - why not some lap time info?

Porsche and Ferrari and Cadillac getting there and Toyota not that rock solid after all

[Gilles27Kimi7]

I have to disagree on the energy graphic. The Porsche problem was that it "fueled" the virtual tank, but didn't put in as much fuel as expected, which can sometimes happen in racing. Then they refueled for real.

[Adam43]

The energy graphic is good. I would clarify exactly what it shows - for me it should show what is allowed in the rules only and not bother with the actual fuel.

If you short fill then it will only partially run down before they come in. Or if you have a problem like the Ferrari it would run down quicker if it is less
efficient and also not completely run down if they can’t get enough fuel in to compensate. That it does this would be interesting and let us hypothesize and try to understand the strategy/problems.

Which makes me think if something else. A car can run out of energy for a stint, but not fuel. There are some rules about this situation and the penalties, but I can’t remember.

The graphics generally are nice and crisp, but I agree they could be tweaked to make them better.

[joeb]

Peugeot torque sensor failed like Toyota but they weren't required to change it.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-default-mode/

[veeten]

Uh oh, though the story is behind endurance-info.Com's subscription, it looks like I was right. BOP update for Spa and Let Mans is on.

Something tells me that Toyota is about to get,... BOPped....

[Adam43]

OK. Let’s see what it brings - they’ve got the data. What would be poor show is if they change it and then have to reverse it later. That’s what I hope they don’t do.

[Simmi]

The article doesn't get into specifics, only that there is going to be an adjustment to aid to the LMDHs prior to Spa.

Have to assume Porsche and Caddy will get a break of some sort. You've got to feel for Peugeot.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Simmi

The article doesn't get into specifics, only that there is going to be an adjustment to aid to the LMDHs prior to Spa.

Interesting. Thanks, I hadn’t read it.

The LMDhs all did a chunk of testing so you’d think they would get up to speed as well as Ferrari. Especially those that had raced similar cars before.

Porsche hadn’t, but I think they probably did the most testing/started earliest (?).

You might even argue it would be easier to get the LMDh up to speed sooner as they are less bespoke as say the Ferrari. Although I am not sure how I feel about that.

Have to assume Porsche and Caddy will get a break of some sort. You've got to feel for Peugeot.

I do feel for them, but it’s of their own making I think. If they just got a BoP bonus because they did a bad job and designed a hard car to use I do know how I would feel about that.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Simmi

The article doesn't get into specifics, only that there is going to be an adjustment to aid to the LMDHs prior to Spa.

Just reminded myself and checked. This was always a potential:

Originally Posted by Gary Watkins Mar 8 2023

The BoP published on Wednesday ahead of this weekend’s official two-day WEC pre-season Prologue test at Sebring gives two tables, one for the opening round at the Florida venue on 17 March and one for the subsequent Algarve, Spa and Le Mans events.

…

It is understood that now only the balance between the two different types of car will be adjusted if necessary on the basis of data from the first two events.


https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/w...nced/10441503/

Was reported elsewhere too.