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Old 12 Nov 2018, 14:39 (Ref:3862759)   #301
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Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker View Post
That's exactly the way I saw it during the race - Ocon had massive overspeed on the straight and led (briefly) approaching the corner, falling back by a few feet as he braked and turned into turn 1, but remaining broadly alongside into turn 2.
Incorrect. He was behind by quite some margin and had absolutely no reason to plow into the side of the Red Bull.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 14:41 (Ref:3862760)   #302
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That's exactly the way I saw it during the race - Ocon had massive overspeed on the straight and led (briefly) approaching the corner, falling back by a few feet as he braked and turned into turn 1, but remaining broadly alongside into turn 2.


When I'm racing, if someone comes up quickly on me, but I'm able to get into a corner marginally better by being inside, I don't immediately turn into the next corner assuming that car has gone away....


This isn't hindsight, its plain common sense.


And the expression on Lewis's face when asked in a post-race interview whether he would have taken the same line as Max did was classic as he tried to come up with a polite response....eventually just grinning and saying ..."no"...


His wasn't hindsight either - although he doubtless couldn't believe his luck as he watched Max throw away his race win through pure hubris.

this 100 percent


but hey its youth over experience, its something Lewis has had to learn too. only difference is, lewis learnt...max seems somewhat stubborn
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 14:50 (Ref:3862763)   #303
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Incorrect. He failed to overtake in turn 1 (as explained by the stewards) and was well behind before turn 2. So he just drove straight into the side of Verstappen. Here's Charlie Whiting explaining why:

There's none so blind as those that cannot see, they say......


As Turn 1 follows immediately into Turn 2, I find it somewhat difficult to comprehend how Ocon was "well behind before Turn 2" when the visual evidence as shown above clearly show Ocon alongside but maybe 1/3 back as Verstappens quicker line through Turn 1 allows him to claw back the position. Verstappen could (and clearly in a sensible world should) have maintained his race-leading position by taking a wider line through 2.



As for idiotic conspiracy theories.........
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 14:50 (Ref:3862764)   #304
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Incorrect. He was behind by quite some margin and had absolutely no reason to plow into the side of the Red Bull.
incorrect. he was alongside.

photos don't lie. there is damage to Maxs car under the B of Bull, so Ocon was at least half way alongside at the point of contact. if this was 2 people fighting for position, Max would have been penilised for turning in on Ocon.

as for B and Bull.....well il let your argument fill in the last 4 letters ;-P

https://twitter.com/OconEsteban/stat...34110467682309
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 14:54 (Ref:3862765)   #305
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There's none so blind as those that cannot see, they say......


As Turn 1 follows immediately into Turn 2, I find it somewhat difficult to comprehend how Ocon was "well behind before Turn 2" when the visual evidence as shown above clearly show Ocon alongside but maybe 1/3 back as Verstappens quicker line through Turn 1 allows him to claw back the position. Verstappen could (and clearly in a sensible world should) have maintained his race-leading position by taking a wider line through 2.
Again, incorrect. As Whiting explains, Ocon could and should not have been fighting. He was behind coming into turn 2, and more importantly, a lap behind. This was not a fight for position. You and others seem to consistently forget that.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 14:57 (Ref:3862766)   #306
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Again, incorrect. As Whiting explains, Ocon could and should not have been fighting. He was behind coming into turn 2, and more importantly, a lap behind. This was not a fight for position. You and others seem to consistently forget that.
Not sure where Lancs was incorrect there. he stated Ocon was alongside (which he was) and Max could have given more room (which he could have)
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:00 (Ref:3862768)   #307
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Incorrect. He was behind by quite some margin and had absolutely no reason to plow into the side of the Red Bull.

Come on - this arguing black is white just for the sake of it is getting tedious. By definition "quite some margin" means "marginal". Taking chances on a marginal call is risky. Verstappen took the risk and lost. Needlessly.


I'm sure, and hope, he'll be a champion some day.....but if he doesn't grow up soon LeClerc will beat him to it.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:04 (Ref:3862769)   #308
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Come on - this arguing black is white just for the sake of it is getting tedious. By definition "quite some margin" means "marginal". Taking chances on a marginal call is risky. Verstappen took the risk and lost. Needlessly.
It is indeed getting tedious, but that's what happens when you're grasping at straws to make a pretty meaningless point for whatever reason. The stewards disagree with you, as does Charlie Whiting as does yours truly. And have given excellent reasons why.

Verstappen did not take a chance or a risk. No driver should expect a lapped car to fight for position. Verstappen did exactly what he was supposed to do. Ocon is the only one who took a unjustifiable risk and Verstappen paid the price for it. I will remind you once again Ocon was penalized with a 10 second stop and go which is the harshest penalty short of exclusion. Charlie Whiting has succinctly explained why.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:12 (Ref:3862772)   #309
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It is indeed getting tedious, but that's what happens when you're grasping at straws to make a pretty meaningless point for whatever reason. The stewards disagree with you, as does Charlie Whiting as does yours truly. And have given excellent reasons why.

Verstappen did not take a chance or a risk. No driver should expect a lapped car to fight for position. Verstappen did exactly what he was supposed to do. Ocon is the only one who took a unjustifiable risk and Verstappen paid the price for it. I will remind you once again Ocon was penalized with a 10 second stop and go which is the harshest penalty short of exclusion. Charlie Whiting has succinctly explained why.
don't think ive seen Lancs or anyone here saying Ocon didn't deserve a penalty, he clearly did. but your black and white argument painting Max as completely blameless is ludicrous.

Fact is, he could have given space, he knew Ocon was quicker and alongside into turn 1/2, and was in tyre protection mode. there was ZERO point in risking a situation with a driver that had nothing to lose and risk coming off worse, which he did.

This is exactly the point that Lewis and others were making to Max after the race.....and I hope for his own career that he starts to take that advice onboard. Kids got immense talent, but needs some racing savvy to maximise it
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:15 (Ref:3862773)   #310
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another aspect of this (which i dont think i have seen mentioned here yet) is that a backmarker decided to insert his nose into a title battle. not RB's battle per say and perhaps a forgone conclusion for Merc, but still a potential Max win could have extended the constructors to the last race of the season.

there is an etiquette here that exists beyond the rule book imo.

that said, the question about how Max should have handled it is for me somewhat of a separate issue. maybe it 's just hindsight for us fans, but in the moment Max should have had a better understanding of the physics involved.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:15 (Ref:3862774)   #311
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It is indeed getting tedious, but that's what happens when you're grasping at straws to make a pretty meaningless point for whatever reason.
Weehee!! We agree on something at last!
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:17 (Ref:3862776)   #312
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another aspect of this (which i dont think i have seen mentioned here yet) is that a backmarker decided to insert his nose into a title battle. not RB's battle per say and perhaps a forgone conclusion for Merc, but still a potential Max win could have extended the constructors to the last race of the season.

there is an etiquette here that exists beyond the rule book imo.

that said, the question about how Max should have handled it is for me somewhat of a separate issue. maybe it 's just hindsight for us fans, but in the moment Max should have had a better understanding of the physics involved.
not really. had lewis finished second it would have been enough for Merc to win the WCC.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:19 (Ref:3862777)   #313
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maybe it 's just hindsight for us fans,
You're on to something! It's called hindsight bias, or historian's fallacy:


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Hindsight bias, also known as the knew-it-all-along effect or creeping determinism, is the inclination, after an event has occurred, to see the event as having been predictable, despite there having been little or no objective basis for predicting it
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The historian's fallacy is an informal fallacy that occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.
This is what leads people to making meaningless statements like 'he could have given space'. It's like blaming someone for getting hit by lightning for not moving out of the way in time.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:23 (Ref:3862780)   #314
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Yeah, except the "knew-it-all-along" idea falls apart when it's a common event. Drivers learn to pick and choose their battles. Lewis did, and commented on it. But I guess Lewis "just knew it all along".

It's like blaming someone for being hit by lightning when they decide to take shelter under a tree.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:23 (Ref:3862781)   #315
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You're on to something! It's called hindsight bias, or historian's fallacy:






This is what leads people to making meaningless statements like 'he could have given space'. It's like blaming someone for getting hit by lightning for not moving out of the way in time.
If you knew where the lightning was going to strike then youd have moved out of the way though

Max knew Ocon was there and still chose to risk it and turn in.

Instead, Max should have thought about it properly and not stood in an empty field during a thunderstorm, and completely avoid the situation

That's what we call experience and common sense
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:24 (Ref:3862782)   #316
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another aspect of this (which i dont think i have seen mentioned here yet) is that a backmarker decided to insert his nose into a title battle. not RB's battle per say and perhaps a forgone conclusion for Merc, but still a potential Max win could have extended the constructors to the last race of the season.

there is an etiquette here that exists beyond the rule book imo.

that said, the question about how Max should have handled it is for me somewhat of a separate issue. maybe it 's just hindsight for us fans, but in the moment Max should have had a better understanding of the physics involved.

But Ocon un-lapping himself was not interfering with any championship points, so the fact that he was a backmarker doesn't really enter into the affair.


It was the immaturity of Verstappen that caused the coming together. A win is a win regardless of how many of the field you have lapped - one less would not have devalued the achievement of crossing the line first at the chequered flag.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:24 (Ref:3862783)   #317
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If you knew where the lightning was going to strike then youd have moved out of the way though
I love that this needs explained. It's remarkable that we're at the point of a discussion that somebody needs told to not stand outside in a lightning storm, lol.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:24 (Ref:3862784)   #318
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Ocon probably should have backed out a bit when trying to unlap the leader.

Verstappen probably should have presumed that Ocon's car hadn't magically vanished when he turned in.

Everyone blames everyone. Max seems like a bit of a bellend.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:27 (Ref:3862785)   #319
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I love that this needs explained. It's remarkable that we're at the point of a discussion that somebody needs told to not stand outside in a lightning storm, lol.
indeed :-)
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:28 (Ref:3862786)   #320
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Ocon probably should have backed out a bit when trying to unlap the leader.

Verstappen probably should have presumed that Ocon's car hadn't magically vanished when he turned in.

Everyone blames everyone. Max seems like a bit of a bellend.

BINGO
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:28 (Ref:3862787)   #321
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Yeah, except the "knew-it-all-along" idea falls apart when it's a common event.
Which this is not. Backmarkers do NOT generally fight with the leaders. Read Whiting's explanation.

It's come to the point where people are just making stuff up out of thin air
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:30 (Ref:3862790)   #322
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It's like blaming someone for getting hit by lightning for not moving out of the way in time.
Not really - it's like blaming someone for getting hit by lightning when they continue to play golf with metal clubs during a thunderstorm.
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:30 (Ref:3862791)   #323
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Which this is not. Backmarkers do NOT generally fight with the leaders. Read Whiting's explanation.
but they do unlap themselves on a regular basis. fighting takes 2 drivers, ocon went to overtake, both had 2 choices, keep their foot in or back off...neither wanted to yield, the responsibility falls more on Ocons side to back out, hence the penalty, but purely from a self preservation POV Max should have given more space
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:31 (Ref:3862792)   #324
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It's come to the point where people are just making stuff up out of thin air
Prey tell, what bits have people made up?
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Old 12 Nov 2018, 15:32 (Ref:3862793)   #325
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Not really - it's like blaming someone for getting hit by lightning when they continue to play golf with metal clubs during a thunderstorm.
Ok, thanks for that completely irrelevant post once again. But for the sake of argument: there was no thunderstorm nor metal clubs in this scenario.
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