Vauxhall Commodore ?

[nickyf1]

Im not sure if its true, but whatching 5th Gear today, a guy from Australia was talking about the new VE Commadore and saying it will replace the monaro in the UK! I really hope this is true!!!!!!!!

[johnh875]

Not a direct replacement because as yet it is only a 4 door sedan (in two wheelbase lengths), but a coupe is expected (as is an estate). The next Camaro (as per shows earlier in the year) will be based on the Commodore platform, and there is talk of a different Monaro coupe in addition.

Would Vauxhall be interested in selling a large sedan? The Commodore is 4.9m long, 1700kg with a 3.6L 255bhp V6 or 6.0L V8. They are standard GM motors though, so could easily have a 2.8/3.2 V6 or a 5.3L V8 instead, and there is supposed to be a diesel version in the works as well.

[Chatters]

nicky- CommOdore, not CommAdore.

Trust me- You don't want to VE over the Monaro! They've stopped producing the Monaros here in Australia and they are are living legend of motor cars!

[Truckosaurus]

As others have said, the new Australian developed Commodore platform will be General Motors main worldwide RWD platform for the next few years. And will definitely be the base for the new Camaro. Will there be a Vauxhall/Opel branded large rwd saloon, who knows?

[nickyf1]

Hmmm, the Vectra is currently Europes GM saloon, will the new vectra be based on a commadore possibly?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

Hmmm, the Vectra is currently Europes GM saloon, will the new vectra be based on a commadore possibly?

The CommOdore is a bigger car than the Vectra - the old Omega was built on the same platform as the Aussie CommOdore

[JHamilton]

Supposedly, we are getting the VE here in the States as well as a Pontiac and maybe a Chevy version. The Pontiac version is believed to be a rebadged Commodore, which I'm all for. I'll buy anything Holden.

[johnh875]

As Dave said, the Commodore is much larger (I would say two sizes larger), and also longitudinal engine / rwd. It is between the Merc E & S classes in size, and the lwb version would be a good “budget” S Class substitute. The previous model Commodore was a lengthened and widened version of the mid-nineties Omega which I understand has not been replaced. Truckosaurus would such a car sell? I doubt it, because weren’t the Omega and Ford Scorpio dropped because buyers were going to prestige brands in that price range? I don’t see it fitting the Saab image, or do GM have another prestige brand in Europe I can’t think of?

JHamilton, I agree although it should be noted such a car would not be produced in Australia but in North America/Mexico. There has actually been speculation that there might be exports of some variants from there to here, using RHD parts shipped over, rather than building too many low volume variants in Australia.

The previous model Commodore had up to 11 different bodyshells being produced inc awd variants which I think they now realise was over the top. By comparison Ford do 5 bodyshells locally. The cars they don’t have a competitor for (coupe & dual cab pickup in both 2 & 4wd, and 4wd cab-chassis pickup) would probably account for somewhere around 6-8000 sales annually. Toyota currently produce 2 models (based on the same Camry bodyshell) but there is talk of also doing the next Highlander/Kluger.

[Truckosaurus]

Originally Posted by johnh875

...or do GM have another prestige brand in Europe I can’t think of?...

They are trying to (re-)launch Cadillac across Europe using a rebodied Saab 9-3.

GM also now sell Daewoos as Chevrolets in the UK, perhaps that might be another possible badge to stick on the front of an Australian built 'big car'.

[BlueBlood]

Down under they sell daewoos as Holden Vivas.
As if that name did not bring up bad memories from the past.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by johnh875

As Dave said, the Commodore is much larger (I would say two sizes larger), and also longitudinal engine / rwd. It is between the Merc E & S classes in size, and the lwb version would be a good “budget” S Class substitute. The previous model Commodore was a lengthened and widened version of the mid-nineties Omega which I understand has not been replaced. Truckosaurus would such a car sell? I doubt it, because weren’t the Omega and Ford Scorpio dropped because buyers were going to prestige brands in that price range? I don’t see it fitting the Saab image, or do GM have another prestige brand in Europe I can’t think of?

JHamilton, I agree although it should be noted such a car would not be produced in Australia but in North America/Mexico. There has actually been speculation that there might be exports of some variants from there to here, using RHD parts shipped over, rather than building too many low volume variants in Australia.

The previous model Commodore had up to 11 different bodyshells being produced inc awd variants which I think they now realise was over the top. By comparison Ford do 5 bodyshells locally. The cars they don’t have a competitor for (coupe & dual cab pickup in both 2 & 4wd, and 4wd cab-chassis pickup) would probably account for somewhere around 6-8000 sales annually. Toyota currently produce 2 models (based on the same Camry bodyshell) but there is talk of also doing the next Highlander/Kluger.

As stated above, Cadillac has been re-launched in Europe. It is on the Epsilon platform and called the BLS.

My understanding is that Holden is trying to "pitch" producing some of the Zeta models in Australia and ship them to the US. This would include the next generation Grand Prix and Impala. Other Zeta models like the Camaro and next gen GTO would be produced here in the states.

Here is an article on the subject.....
http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...gto_grand_prix

[daz90]

I have read somewhere that we are indeed going to get a VXR version of the Commodore here in the UK, Holden have stopped producing the Monaro and our stocks here will run out soon enough, and the Monaro seems to have been a big hit here in the UK Vauxhall are hoping the Commodore will prove to be as big a hit here too.

VXR will play about with Holdens version, and then bring it over here, i remember a few years ago there was a few of the older Commodores being imported to the UK, so people wanted them then and that was before the Monaro hit the shores in Vauxhall guise.

I think it might have even been in Auto express that i read this.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by daz90

the Monaro seems to have been a big hit here in the UK Vauxhall are hoping the Commodore will prove to be as big a hit here too.

I think it was only a big hit with the motoring press. Buyers with around £30,000 to spend don't want a Vauxhall badge on their car.

[daz90]

I dont know, there were alot of Monaro's at Silverstone the other week for the final round of the BTCC. And i have seen a few about myself, Vauxhall is gaining a much better reputation these days, thanks to the VXR branded motors and better looking/built cars in general.

If i had 30 grand spare, i would buy a VXR Commodore.

[johnh875]

The article mentions sending the lwb sedan to the US as a Buick was dropped (strange reasoning given, surely it would not be impossible to sell SUVs and sedans as well?? No wonder GM is doing so well). It goes further than that, from memory big big dollars were spent on the cars’ development with a view for serious volume sales/production in the States, then things went sour about 18mths-2yrs before launch at which time Holden went into a frenzy of getting cost out of the car and remaining development, because all of a sudden their development cost-per-unit sums were looking very sick.

There was noise about the previous Commodore going to the States 10yrs ago, again as a Buick, but that was quashed by the UAW. I wonder if that has changed? I understand the ~18k per year the Pontiac GTO was expected to sell was acceptable, but surely a large sedan ought to sell in far greater numbers than that. If it got off the ground properly it would exceed the capacity of the local plant. As it stands Holden export a decent number of cars to the middle east, mostly the lwb sedan (sold as Chev Caprice) but also some swb sedans (Chev Lumina) and a few Monaros. Something our UK readers may not be aware of is there is now a free trade agreement between AUS/USA.

Re UK/Europe, it would be interesting to see the car sold as a Cadillac, certainly it would be more acceptable to European taste than the normal Caddy barge (even though they are better I gather they aren’t great yet) although no doubt a bit “cheap” in the interior. I’m not sure Chev badging would work, if it wouldn’t sell as a Vauxhall why would a cheaper brand work?

Daz90 I am aware of the earlier HSV imports, I imagine “few” might be the operative number there… VXR don’t need to do much to the car, they just take the HSV version which has the mods done already, as per previous VXRs. The new HSV has 307kw/410hp, Magnetic Ride Control dampers on the top version and they have finally put wider rubber on the rear (275/35/20), 365/350mm brakes etc. Unless they want to put a blower on it…

Blueblood – I don’t think too many in the target market would be aware there was a car with the name previously!

Edit - geez I have written some cr@p in this thread, please tell me to shut up if you aren't finding it useful/interesting lol

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by johnh875

There was noise about the previous Commodore going to the States 10yrs ago, again as a Buick, but that was quashed by the UAW. I wonder if that has changed? I understand the ~18k per year the Pontiac GTO was expected to sell was acceptable, but surely a large sedan ought to sell in far greater numbers than that.

The previous Commodore did go to the US! Well, not exactly the Commodore, but a modified version of the very similar Opel Omega was sold as the Cadillac Catera from 1997 to 2001. Maybe 'sold' was a bad choice of words......they couldn't give them away!

I’m not sure Chev badging would work, if it wouldn’t sell as a Vauxhall why would a cheaper brand work?

The Chevrolet name has been so debased in the UK by attaching it to crappy little Daewoos that they they don't want Corvette buyers (about three/yr!) to know that they are buying a Chevy; try to find the word 'Chevrolet' on the official Corvette Europe website!

Originally Posted by daz90

I dont know, there were alot of Monaro's at Silverstone the other week for the final round of the BTCC. And i have seen a few about myself,

Maybe most of them dealer cars? I've never seen one on the road!

Vauxhall is gaining a much better reputation these days, thanks to the VXR branded motors and better looking/built cars in general.

Vauxhall's quality is as good as anybody's nowadays, but image? Between the 'rep's car' Vectra & the 'Chav's car' Nova there may be a few niches! Better-looking? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but to me they have a lot of 'styling' but very little style; just trying too hard.

[garcon]

There was a Monaro / HSV owners club bash at the Silverstone BTCC. I'm told most of the Monaros in the country were there.

If GM do decide to sell the new Commodore in Europe I wouldn't be surprised if it has a Cadillac badge - they're desperately trying to break the Cadillac name in the UK.

[StuiE]

No no, it's quite interesting John. Have GM thought of bringing in the VE to the US as a CKD (complete knocked down) kit? That was Holden gets money (not as much as if they built the whole thing, but still), and it would keep the UAW happy because their work won't be going overseas and they still have jobs.

They could also put their US built (are LS2's US built, could be Canada or Mexico) engines, It'd also be a good thing for GM in the US as AFAIK they don't have a large RWD car.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by johnh875

The article mentions sending the lwb sedan to the US as a Buick was dropped (strange reasoning given, surely it would not be impossible to sell SUVs and sedans as well?? No wonder GM is doing so well). It goes further than that, from memory big big dollars were spent on the cars’ development with a view for serious volume sales/production in the States, then things went sour about 18mths-2yrs before launch at which time Holden went into a frenzy of getting cost out of the car and remaining development, because all of a sudden their development cost-per-unit sums were looking very sick.

There was noise about the previous Commodore going to the States 10yrs ago, again as a Buick, but that was quashed by the UAW. I wonder if that has changed? I understand the ~18k per year the Pontiac GTO was expected to sell was acceptable, but surely a large sedan ought to sell in far greater numbers than that. If it got off the ground properly it would exceed the capacity of the local plant. As it stands Holden export a decent number of cars to the middle east, mostly the lwb sedan (sold as Chev Caprice) but also some swb sedans (Chev Lumina) and a few Monaros. Something our UK readers may not be aware of is there is now a free trade agreement between AUS/USA.

Re UK/Europe, it would be interesting to see the car sold as a Cadillac, certainly it would be more acceptable to European taste than the normal Caddy barge (even though they are better I gather they aren’t great yet) although no doubt a bit “cheap” in the interior. I’m not sure Chev badging would work, if it wouldn’t sell as a Vauxhall why would a cheaper brand work?

Daz90 I am aware of the earlier HSV imports, I imagine “few” might be the operative number there… VXR don’t need to do much to the car, they just take the HSV version which has the mods done already, as per previous VXRs. The new HSV has 307kw/410hp, Magnetic Ride Control dampers on the top version and they have finally put wider rubber on the rear (275/35/20), 365/350mm brakes etc. Unless they want to put a blower on it…

Blueblood – I don’t think too many in the target market would be aware there was a car with the name previously!

Edit - geez I have written some cr@p in this thread, please tell me to shut up if you aren't finding it useful/interesting lol

No, no...you have written an interesting and informative thread.

Buick is in big trouble and I would not be surprised it that marque gets wacked in the short term future. They really need to take that brand towards the high end Japanese market (specifically Lexus) if they are to succeed. The current offerings from Buick are really pretty sad.

On your point about Caddy...They are vastly improved. Not even the same company they were 10 years ago. You guys need one of these.....

A M3 that makes a proper noise.

I'm not sure if you were kidding or not, but the last few VXRs are coming equiped with a blower from the factory.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by StuiE

No no, it's quite interesting John. Have GM thought of bringing in the VE to the US as a CKD (complete knocked down) kit? That was Holden gets money (not as much as if they built the whole thing, but still), and it would keep the UAW happy because their work won't be going overseas and they still have jobs.

They could also put their US built (are LS2's US built, could be Canada or Mexico) engines, It'd also be a good thing for GM in the US as AFAIK they don't have a large RWD car.

I hope the UAW will smarten up and realize that they need these cars and they need some of them to be built in Australia. This will help save their jobs!

LS2s are built in Canada and the Tremec transmissions are built in Mexico.

[pplater]

[QUOTE=JHamilton]
A M3 that makes a proper noise.
QUOTE]

If you're telling me that the 'M' S54 six doesn't make a proper noise, then you are seriously mistaken. I'll take that hair-raising rasp over the farty tractor noise a Chev V8 makes any day.

[JHamilton]

[quote=pplater]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

A M3 that makes a proper noise.
QUOTE]

If you're telling me that the 'M' S54 six doesn't make a proper noise, then you are seriously mistaken. I'll take that hair-raising rasp over the farty tractor noise a Chev V8 makes any day.

Well, I was kidding but since you insulted the GM V8...."Nah uh" Now if we were talking about the V8 in the old M3 GTR, that's a different story.

[johnh875]

Dave, I was aware of the Catera – “the Caddy that zigs” if I remember the ads correctly! A 2.8L six cyl from memory. I never followed how well they sold (or not). I’d say the Omega would have a more upmarket ambience than the Commodore, they sell in different market segments – to do a direct currency conversion the base model Commodore (AUS$35k) sells for £14k or US$24k. The previous generation (VT model) was released with a very basic semi-trailing arm rear suspension that they only upgraded when they wanted to put more than 350hp through it, which would distort the bushes too much and create unwanted rear-steering effects - having ridden in the model before the extra link was put in, the deflection when the auto changed gear under full throttle (with nearly 400hp) was ridiculous.

StuiE, not sure about CKD exports, hopefully they are considering all options. It would save on the round trip the engines in the Pontiac GTO’s did – buy a brand new car where the engine has travelled 20,000km! (guess) Lucky it is not running at the time.

Yes that was a reference to the blown VXR 500, one of the local car mags ran a comparison test from the UK between that and the Mustang GT500 (including a laughable trip to the Santa Pod dragstrip running 14sec quarter miles!). It would be interesting to see the local Ford involved too – I know a guy with an FPV Typhoon putting out over 500hp (has 450hp at the wheels!) after about $3 or 4k worth of mods. The turbo 4L engine has so much power potential, he is only using 10 or 12 pound boost.

Interesting point re Buick, GM has had too many marques for years, without the product to go around, and not much “reason for being”. Ok the Cadillac CTS-V, well here is the new HSV GTS, should see it off I would think. Seeing the CTS-V again I think they took a bit of inspiration from its styling (they are 20" wheels). The Chev engines don’t sound that good though, the better sounding engine I think is the Ford/FPV Boss engine - 5.4L with DOHC 32v heads and 390hp. I’ll have to see if I can find a video or audio file.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Dave, I was aware of the Catera – “the Caddy that zigs” if I remember the ads correctly! A 2.8L six cyl from memory. I never followed how well they sold (or not).

It was a 3-litre V6. I think the problem with it was that it fell squarely between several stools. They were trying, I think, to compete with Lexus, Mercedes, etc. Buyers of those cars expected better quality than they would get from a GM product, Cadillac buyers wanted a V8, import buyers want the import badge,etc., etc. As with the 'GTO', looks to me more like a piece of desperation marketing rather than a carefully-researched niche product.

[daz90]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

The Chevrolet name has been so debased in the UK by attaching it to crappy little Daewoos that they they don't want Corvette buyers (about three/yr!) to know that they are buying a Chevy; try to find the word 'Chevrolet' on the official Corvette Europe website!

I would never even consider a Caddy, in whatever form it took on, the name for me is far worse than Vauxhall, mostly because as you say they are just a knocked off Daewoo, but even the proper American cars are hardly desirable are they! shoddy build and dodgy handling.

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Maybe most of them dealer cars? I've never seen one on the road!

Nope they belonged to people from an owners club. And i have seen atleast three in Grantham this year (different ones too, not the same car ).

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Vauxhall's quality is as good as anybody's nowadays, but image? Between the 'rep's car' Vectra & the 'Chav's car' Nova there may be a few niches! Better-looking? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but to me they have a lot of 'styling' but very little style; just trying too hard.

Okay, the current Vectra does let the side down quite a bit, but there is a new one all set for late 07/08 and that looks a vast improvement in terms of 'styling' desirability is all down to people's personal perception of a brand, your right though, certainly 10 years ago Vauxhall were hardly a desirable brand, but i think things are now changing, okay they will never be in the same league as the germans, or have the same desirabilty as an Alfa for example, but they can certainly rival many of the other European marks if not better them, they certainly beat the Asians.

As for your Nova example, they stopped producing that car in 1992, the Corsa obviously replaced it and the older examples of that are now being turned into 'chav' mobiles. However again, the current Corsa looks a decent little car, certainly a better example of what Vauxhall have acheived since the first incarnation of the Corsa back in 93. Big volume manufacturers have a hard time, because they build cars for the masses, and they do so on a budget, this often shows, but Vauxhall are improveing imensly.