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Old 31 Oct 2011, 09:51 (Ref:2979470)   #31
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Good debate guys!

Could there also have been an element of Indian PR here?

Would it have been better financially for Narain to do well at his home race with next years budget in mind?
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 10:07 (Ref:2979477)   #32
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Carsandmotorracing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Guys, Daniel doesn't decide what series he races in...
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 11:39 (Ref:2979509)   #33
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Daniel Ricciardo (18th)
“The first laps weren’t great but then I managed to pass a few people. Some laps later I got past Narain and set a good rhythm; I was happy with the first stint as everything was going well, the balance was good and the tyres were performing well. In the second stint I felt a strange feeling in the front of the car after a couple of laps, the car was moving quite a bit from left to right, I still don’t know the reason for this but it might have been a puncture. It’s a shame because as a cause we had to do an extra pit stop and lost quite a bit of time with that. In the third stint, once we found our pace we were quite competitive. It ruined the rhythm of our race but hopefully we can avoid it from happening next time".

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../10/12726.html
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 12:24 (Ref:2979537)   #34
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Red Bull seems to underestimate the effect of actually getting those titles in your junior career. They've done the same mistake with Alguesuari, and will probably do the same with Vergne. I think they'll be lesser drivers for it.

(This does not apply to Buemi, who was probably never going to win a GP2 title)
alguersuari wasn't going to win the fr3.5 title either, iirc. given an extra year, who knows, but in my opinion they did the right thing with him.

i think it was clear that ricciardo, for whatever reason, wasn't going to be in the title hunt in fr3.5. even if his performance at monaco was superb, and he drove a great race at monza pressuring vergne. i don't believe it'd have made any difference if he'd have been there to race at motorland and start the season properly.

i think putting ricciardo in a dodgy f1 car was right, considering the fact he wobbled and lost the fr3.5 title (i don't believe aleshin won it, ricciardo lost it). what better way to see if that was an unfortunate set of circumstances than to put him in a difficult situation and see how he handles it? plus it gains him experience in a f1 situation, which is entirely different to anything else regardless of how you think of it.

they'd be wise to do the same with vergne. at the moment they don't have quite the same comparison, and his reaction to the pressure at barcelona was very hamilton-esque.
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 12:36 (Ref:2979541)   #35
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hamilton-esque.
Which is not currently the same as Senna-esque.
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 15:01 (Ref:2979626)   #36
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alguersuari wasn't going to win the fr3.5 title either, iirc. given an extra year, who knows, but in my opinion they did the right thing with him.

i think it was clear that ricciardo, for whatever reason, wasn't going to be in the title hunt in fr3.5. even if his performance at monaco was superb, and he drove a great race at monza pressuring vergne. i don't believe it'd have made any difference if he'd have been there to race at motorland and start the season properly.

i think putting ricciardo in a dodgy f1 car was right, considering the fact he wobbled and lost the fr3.5 title (i don't believe aleshin won it, ricciardo lost it). what better way to see if that was an unfortunate set of circumstances than to put him in a difficult situation and see how he handles it? plus it gains him experience in a f1 situation, which is entirely different to anything else regardless of how you think of it.

they'd be wise to do the same with vergne. at the moment they don't have quite the same comparison, and his reaction to the pressure at barcelona was very hamilton-esque.
And I stand by my point that these guys needed to be given the time to win their titles and get experience. You throw Grosjean into F1 now and he'd be a completely different driver.
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 18:07 (Ref:2979700)   #37
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i'm going to end up contradicting myself here to try and convince you that you're not entirely correct.

grosjean returns to f1 as a different driver *because* of his rubbish f1 experience. winning trophies doesn't make any difference (well ok, it doesn't make much difference), the bit that has improved him and raised his game is the crap he took at renault, and the rebuilding process after that. just in the same way it would do for a young driver who had ended up in gp2 a little prematurely and taken a similar emotional kicking.

it's important for a driver to be able to cope with pressure, but a really talented driver who doesn't win a title is no worse than a marginally less talented driver who does.
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Old 31 Oct 2011, 19:50 (Ref:2979764)   #38
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Grosjean's experience is a bit like Piero Martini who had a torrid time when he came into F1 in 1985 with Minardi as the great Italian hope. He had to regroup in F3000, quite succesfully, and reminded people that he was a decent pedaller.

He then returned to F1 and whilst he never got a drive worth a sniff, he gained a rep as a decent qualifier and managed a fairly lengthy career.
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Old 1 Nov 2011, 02:43 (Ref:2979925)   #39
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likewise timo glock, after his debut with jordan.

not that ricciardo will need to regroup or anything, but bringing someone like him into f1 earlier than you'd think really isn't a big deal, especially if his season isn't going to pan out perfectly and there's an opportunity to assess his abilities. from a drivers point of view, a f1 car is still a f1 car isn't it? and driving for different teams, seeing different approaches and understanding different cars (as he's been able to do) is hardly a negative concept.
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Old 1 Nov 2011, 06:52 (Ref:2979982)   #40
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likewise timo glock, after his debut with jordan.

not that ricciardo will need to regroup or anything, but bringing someone like him into f1 earlier than you'd think really isn't a big deal, especially if his season isn't going to pan out perfectly and there's an opportunity to assess his abilities. from a drivers point of view, a f1 car is still a f1 car isn't it? and driving for different teams, seeing different approaches and understanding different cars (as he's been able to do) is hardly a negative concept.
When you come to F1 you really need to make a positive mark. Webber, Alonso both made a mark when they came to F1, even in the Minardi's of their day. (Earlier Minardi seasons had resulted in 4ths and a front row start in 1990). Schumacher's debut at Spa in EJ's Jordan was a surprise to everyone and he was rewarded quickly.

Glock was good in Toyota's but the Virgin as it is now is a waste of his talent. Without the opportunity to shine or produce something really good then you actually dull your reputation and a few good performances get mixed up with the dozens of dull ones. The road to success becomes a lot harder.
Hulkenburg got a pole in Brazil last year but that still has a power of good in his favour. It may have been a bit freakish but people still remember it, so if he backs it up with a series of good results next year people will simply regard it as a sign of the talent that 'was always there....'

Kimi did well in his first year at Sauber and the result was a McLaren call up.

Fisichella got a pole at Spa for Force India but if Di Resta had put the car on the front row at the same venue this year it would have been a revelation. As it is he has done himself a lot of good with a series of good drives. He has made a mark of sorts so next year will be interesting.

Someone like Ricciardo needs to have a few standout performances, but thats hard in an HRT. If he did something remarkable in Brazil or Abu Dhabi then he could have abn advantage but where to next year?

At the moment we have more talent than good rides at a time when a good car is more critical than ever.
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Old 1 Nov 2011, 08:23 (Ref:2980002)   #41
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I reckoned Grosjean was reasonably decent in the circumstances alongside Alonso, so I'm one of those who think he'd probably acquit himself well.
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Old 2 Nov 2011, 05:40 (Ref:2980461)   #42
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I think it's a little of both, personally...

Ricciardo's Red Bull contract is up at the end of this season... If they decide to cut back their young driver program, what does the 2011 entry on Dan's CV look like on the driver market?

A bunch of races pootling around at the back in an HRT - and finished behind Karthikeyan at the Indian GP (and don't bother with the excuses!),

OR:

FR3.5 champion (not saying he would definitely won it - just saying he would have had a better shot) and a season of Friday practice...
He had a bloody mechanical drama and an extra (long) pitstop. Jeez give the guy a break.

What are people expecting of him....he is in a bloody HRT. Beating a Virgin is a standout performance. And let's not forget he often outpaced Algersuari or Buemi in the Friday sessions at the start of the season. If he doesn't get a fair go at Toro Rosso next year it's a joke.

Algersuari will probaley replace Webber for 2013. Put Ricciardo in for 2012 and Vergne can do the Friday sessions for a year with Toros Rosso and move up to a Toro Rosso race seat in 2013. Simple. It's fair and Vergne and Ricciardo both get fair chances
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Old 2 Nov 2011, 05:45 (Ref:2980464)   #43
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He had a bloody mechanical drama and an extra (long) pitstop. Jeez give the guy a break.
Yes, I'm aware more than most... Check my previous posts.

I was (perhaps lazily) invoking the thoughts of team managers looking over Dan's CV in the event that Red Bull don't pick up their option on him at the end of the year... To make the point that I'm not convinced that HRT was the right call for Dan personally.
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Old 15 Nov 2011, 11:01 (Ref:2986646)   #44
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So will Vergne get the gig at STR next year? I suspect if Vergne does a good job then Dan could be out in the cold. Or possibly we see a repeat of past years where the Klein/Luizzi shared gig gets the nod until they decide on who will partner Jaime
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Old 16 Nov 2011, 09:21 (Ref:2987131)   #45
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I think it would be silly to throw Vergne into a Toro Rosso seat with him having no experience and DR having had nearly half a season of experience in F1. Its not DR's fault that the HRT is a piece of garbage, sure he's at the back of the pack, for anyone else to expect otherwise in the HRT is just ludicrous. I think Red Bull had a good idea by giving him some F1 seat time via HRT but the logical next step is to put him into an actually competitive machine to see how DR will do further up the field.

Mind you if Toro Rosso is sold then some drivers may be out in the cold and DR will probably be just one of them.
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