[Tech Issue] Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

[ECW Dan Selby]

Yeh, I seriously doubt it would have helped Bianchi. I saw the incident and today, and not a lot would have helped (other than the removal vehicle not being there, of course).

But still, it should be looked in to, I think.

Selby

[wnut]

Closed cockpits easy, Rob Smedley.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116193

[Armco Bender]

Brings up a whole new set of problems in the rain.

[GTRMagic]

Wont a closed cockpit just make everything look like a variant of a DeltaWing?

[morningview66]

Maybe it is that closed cockpit cars are inevitable, but then where is the difference between a formula car and a prototype sports car?

Im just brainstorming here but for an interim solution that doesn't involve scrambling the safety car every time. Could F1 not use a code 60/slow zone system, similar to what was trialled at Le Mans this year?

For example every time there is double waved yellows e.g. marshalls/vehicles on track, that sector of racetrack would be made a slow zone. All cars would have to stick to their pit lane speed limiter/other speed limiter for the duration of that sector until they get the green at the end of the sector.

[chillibowl]

i havent seen video or photos of the accident so just asking a question here.

would the first medical responders and/or doctor have the ability to open up the cockpit especially if its broken.

i imagine that problem has been asked and answered in other series which have closed cockpits but im not familiar with the answer though.

SBF, really like the idea of a HUD also being implemented. a rather elegant solution and compromise to the movement of banning radio comms. give the driver the raw info and let them make of it what they will.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

In the Bianchi crash, it's difficult to know whether a cockpit would ultimately have smashed after helping to dissipate energy or whether it would he been strong enough to remain intact to change the angle of the car to prevent or lessen a head injury.

The survival cell itself appears to have been relatively intact, so manual release buttons near the neutral and battery cut off would have been easily reached.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i havent seen video or photos of the accident so just asking a question here.

would the first medical responders and/or doctor have the ability to open up the cockpit especially if its broken.

i imagine that problem has been asked and answered in other series which have closed cockpits but im not familiar with the answer though.

SBF, really like the idea of a HUD also being implemented. a rather elegant solution and compromise to the movement of banning radio comms. give the driver the raw info and let them make of it what they will.

From still pictures of medical staff attending right at the beginning they had easy access as the top Cairbox, roll are)was demolished but tub/safety cell was intact. As people have said, would a cockpit canopy have made a difference? Maybe but it probably would not have with stood the impact, so may have had some detrimental effect.

[chillibowl]

thanks for the responses.

have just read the recent press release. not a medical expert (obviously) but the injury being described is not an impact injury but rather from the brain moving in the skull during deceleration?

would i be correct in assuming that a closed cockpit would have little or no bearing on preventing this type of injury?

in fairness im sure they are looking at this from every perspective but shouldn't they also be looking at the Hans device as not working as intended?

[Scooter185]

The whole vehicle would have needed to be slowed before impact to really make a difference. The brain rattles around in the skull, so when Jules head stopped moving, his brain kept going until it hit the inside of the skull. Like when you slam on your brakes hard and are thrown forward.

A closed cockpit likely doesn't help any in this situation

[Sodemo]

I have just seen the Autosport picture of the 2013 "cockpit" which was tested on the Mercedes. I have to say, it doesn't look that ugly. My one fear, certainly in the case of the Bianchi incident would be that in that particular incident, the recovery vehicle might have actually been lifted up even more, then dropped on top of the drivers head, which may be worse than what actually occurred at Suzuka.

I'm not really sure where the governing bodies would be going with this. Would they then outlaw all open cockpit racing? So Formula Ford would have cockpits, same with F3 etc?

[werner]

Originally Posted by morningview66

Maybe it is that closed cockpit cars are inevitable, but then where is the difference between a formula car and a prototype sports car?

Open wheels, the chassis only suitable to carry 1 person, instead of the (granted, very theoretical) ability to carry 2 in a sportscar, headlights.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but shouldn't they also be looking at the Hans device as not working as intended?

The HANS device is designed to prevent one specific cause of injury - a basal skull fracture. That is not the injury suffered by Jules, so either it did work or it wasn't needed because of the angle of impact.

[Tucky]

The Hans device probably stopped his injuries from being even worse

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The HANS device is designed to prevent one specific cause of injury - a basal skull fracture. That is not the injury suffered by Jules, so either it did work or it wasn't needed because of the angle of impact.

It probably did work and did its job. The car did not move much from the point where the back of the tractor took off even though there was a break in the fencing to his right (where the tractor was heading to drop the Sauber).

The video speed seems huge but the car came to a complete halt only a couple of metres beyond the point where Maussia made contact with the tractor. So the deceleration was enormous.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thanks for the responses.

have just read the recent press release. not a medical expert (obviously) but the injury being described is not an impact injury but rather from the brain moving in the skull during deceleration?

would i be correct in assuming that a closed cockpit would have little or no bearing on preventing this type of injury?

in fairness im sure they are looking at this from every perspective but shouldn't they also be looking at the Hans device as not working as intended?

It would appear that the injury Jules sustained is a...

"a diffuse axonal injury".

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29096.html

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

It would appear that the injury Jules sustained is a...

"a diffuse axonal injury".

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29096.html

Thanks Jeremy, and the obligatory wiki page for most of us is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_axonal_injury

Looks to be horrible!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks Jeremy, and the obligatory wiki page for most of us is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_axonal_injury

Looks to be horrible!

I have to wonder if a closed cockpit would have made the slightest difference in this case...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I have to wonder if a closed cockpit would have made the slightest difference in this case...

The specific case is hard to assess.
To my mind however, anything that can absorb the amount of energy imparted on it by the wheel above has to help prevent injury.

You would also have to wonder if there was a role for an airbag/s?
Should help protect the head and also allow for a more controlled deceleration of the head in a high G impact and hopefully prevent the brain bouncing around inside the skull.

I have way more questions than answers!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

The specific case is hard to assess.
To my mind however, anything that can absorb the amount of energy imparted on it by the wheel above has to help prevent injury.

You would also have to wonder if there was a role for an airbag/s?
Should help protect the head and also allow for a more controlled deceleration of the head in a high G impact and hopefully prevent the brain bouncing around inside the skull.

I have way more questions than answers!

To partially answer your second question, shaking a baby violently can induce DAI. Jules had an operation for bleeding of the brain induced by the impact. This relieves pressure as the brain swells. DAI is a secondary injury that is caused by chemical reactions within the brain that damage the brains ability to communicate with other parts of the brain hours, or even days, later. (axonals)
I'm not sure if an air bag would be fast enough or progressive enough to actually prevent DAI happening.

[Moneyseeker]

If canopies were introduced and looking at the wide range of weather conditions across the calendar would this mean that the glass would need to be heated to combat misting in the rain and the cockpit fitted with air conditioning as per the closed LMP1 , to combat the high temps of Malaysia, etc?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The HANS device is designed to prevent one specific cause of injury - a basal skull fracture. That is not the injury suffered by Jules, so either it did work or it wasn't needed because of the angle of impact.

of course a different injury then what the HANS is specifically designed to prevent but by preventing the head from violently moving forward during deceleration i was wondering that by restricting the movement of the head does that also restrict the movement of the brain?

i suspect the head and brain move somewhat independent of each other so if my head is stopped/prevented from moving forward does that increase the force with which my brain, still moving forward, will impact with the inside of the front part of my skull?

anyways just speculating and relating it to some of what is being talked about with brain trauma and football (NFL) players.

sorry if i am going off topic.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

of course a different injury then what the HANS is specifically designed to prevent but by preventing the head from violently moving forward during deceleration i was wondering that by restricting the movement of the head does that also restrict the movement of the brain?

i suspect the head and brain move somewhat independent of each other so if my head is stopped/prevented from moving forward does that increase the force with which my brain, still moving forward, will impact with the inside of the front part of my skull?

anyways just speculating and relating it to some of what is being talked about with brain trauma and football (NFL) players.

sorry if i am going off topic.

Brain trauma caused by contact with something outside the head is the first cause but DAI is usually about what happens inside the brain of a secondary nature. The brain moves inside the skull and this creates following chemical issues that result in breaking the connections in the brain that enable your brain to function normally.

Shaking a baby violently can cause DAI without any contact to the head.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Drivers want a rethink on closed cockpits.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116234

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Drivers want a rethink on closed cockpits.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116234

I liked the article from the point that it wasn't alarmist and to the points that the drivers mention... just look deeper into what it would take. It is interesting that prior research was halted due to "aesthetics" which I think is a very poor excuse. There is plenty on these cars that is ugly and frankly I think if done right could look good and quite cool. I am still a bit on the fence and would want more info before I would say "do it".

I reopened this topic a few days ago, but haven't really responded to the various posts. I don't know if anyone can say if a closed cockpit would have helped Bianchi or not. I suspect the answer is "maybe" and doubt it would have hurt. I am also completely not convinced that a well done closed cockpit would have "shattered" upon impact with the crane (i.e. it would have been a pointless exercise) as some have speculated.

Also, to my original post, I was also concerned that the roll hoop sheared off and I don't think anyone has talked about that? I know their primary (only?) function is to protect the driver upon roll over. But I do think they should (if they don't already) have some level of expected shear protection. Is there a shear test protocol for the hoops? And I know that regardless of the specs and design, there will be a point that it will fail. In this case it is a moot point as I think Bianchi went into forward facing and the hoop would have done little or nothing to protect him. Or maybe having the hoop shear off might have helped him (smoothed out the deceleration curve?) But regardless having hoops sheared off scare me.

Richard