Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Adam43

What I most like about location checks out is how it can be used to then simply dismiss a whole nation’s opinion.

Shame really as it dismisses a lot of good points.

And, IMHO, completely misses the situation here.

I admit, I am super confused about the British fascination with celebrity or "royalty". To care at all about some family as if they deserved to be "royal", and to call Frank Williams "sir" Frank Williams, and gush over sports stars from there like hamilton is odd to me. It would be like if the Kardashians began "knighting" people in the US and we treated those designations as valuable

But "location checks out" is not nearly as dismissive as placing the reason for criticism of hamilton as race. That ends all decent discussion at that point.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I dont think hamilton is grouchy on the radio. I think he says things to create drama. He's a drama queen.







If senna or schumacher were driving in this era of social media and cameras and radio everywhere, they would get the same microscope. But, to an extent, yes, the others get scrutiny like hamilton. Take albon. "They race me so hard" is now a punchline for him. One radio comment, and he's stuck with that being brought up for the foreseeable future.

Hamilton makes more silly, overdramatic, annoying comments than most. Take the last race. Even the commentators finally sort of snickered at his call about the tires not doing great. It's like a standard of every race. He radios that the tires are in had shape, then immediately proceeds to rip off fast lap after fast lap. Then he's 20+ seconds up and calls that he has a cramp. Oh no! How dramatic! Can he survive the race with a cramp?!?! What an amazing feat to finish and win witha cramp!

He seems to create drama where there is none with stuff like this almost every race. And the commentators dutifully go right along with it, talking about how heroic it is to fight through the troubles he is having. It doesn't help that here in the US we get the British sky sports commentators, building him into a mythical hero. Then I come here and, yes, location checks out as most on here deify him as well.

I find it laughable anyone suggesting anyone gets anywhere near as much scrutiny as Lewis does. Albon is perhaps the closest but it's not even 10% of what Lewis gets. Albon is under the microscope because he is taking up a top seat and continually failing to achieve what he needs to achieve. Lewis meanwhile gets more scrutiny whilst achieving more than anyone else has in the sports history. Is that how we justify Lewis being scrutinised? By comparing him to those much worse?

Or look at that (now, correctly, deleted) thread about how Lewis is a hypocrite for taking the knee but not speaking out about other issues. There was ZERO mention in there about the 10 or so other drivers that take the knee with Lewis. Or the others who turn up to support but choose not take the knee. Not one single other driver was mentioned in that thread. Just Lewis. But lets hear again about how Albon gets it just as bad, right? Why was Lewis singled out? Or do we really not want to hear the answer to that question?

You're right. The location does seem to check out. Unfortunately for you, that works both ways.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I admit, I am super confused about the British fascination with celebrity or "royalty". To care at all about some family as if they deserved to be "royal", and to call Frank Williams "sir" Frank Williams, and gush over sports stars from there like hamilton is odd to me. It would be like if the Kardashians began "knighting" people in the US and we treated those designations as valuable

But "location checks out" is not nearly as dismissive as placing the reason for criticism of hamilton as race. That ends all decent discussion at that point.

Bloody hell. The country which elected a reality TV star as president is confused about others fascination with celebrity. And doesn't understand a basic civilian decorations system because it has different names to what his own country does. Location checks out, right?

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I find it laughable anyone suggesting anyone gets anywhere near as much scrutiny as Lewis does. Albon is perhaps the closest but it's not even 10% of what Lewis gets. Albon is under the microscope because he is taking up a top seat and continually failing to achieve what he needs to achieve. Lewis meanwhile gets more scrutiny whilst achieving more than anyone else has in the sports history. Is that how we justify Lewis being scrutinised? By comparing him to those much worse?

Or look at that (now, correctly, deleted) thread about how Lewis is a hypocrite for taking the knee but not speaking out about other issues. There was ZERO mention in there about the 10 or so other drivers that take the knee with Lewis. Or the others who turn up to support but choose not take the knee. Not one single other driver was mentioned in that thread. Just Lewis. But lets hear again about how Albon gets it just as bad, right? Why was Lewis singled out? Or do we really not want to hear the answer to that question?

You're right. The location does seem to check out. Unfortunately for you, that works both ways.

Not sure we should dive into why others would take a knee with hamilton. Ask drew brees what happens if you dare to disagree with a type of protest or movement.

I thought I made the point (maybe I didn't do it well enough) that being the best driver will come with it more attention. Schumacher and senna in this era would also get more attention, good and bad. Social media has a lot to do with it. And if the driver is active on social media, seeks attention, puts as much out there to the public as hamilton does, well.... dont complain when more attention, good and bad comes your way.

So far, we have one silly radio comment from albon and it's like a scarlet letter for him already. Hamilton has silly radio comments almost every race. Or at least overly dramatic comments, which again invites attention, which will bring good and bad attentions.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Bloody hell. The country which elected a reality TV star as president is confused about others fascination with celebrity. And doesn't understand a basic civilian decorations system because it has different names to what his own country does. Location checks out, right?

Hey, we may elect them, but we also tear them down all the time too

We dont really treat them like royalty.

And I can't stand fascination with celebrity in any form. But at least dont deify them, and act like they belong on some pedestal.... even if you elect them to a high office position

To that last point, I think we have done a good enough job showing both the good and bad of our reality tv star/president, haha. Now do British celebrities and royalty

[Akrapovic]

Why? I didn’t bring it up and don’t see how it’s relevant to Lewis? Your reality TV President gives out the Presidential Medal of Freedom to sports stars. Including the US equivalent of Frank Williams, Rodger Penske. There’s no difference there at all. And I think you massively overestimate how many people care about the Royal Family here.

But, how about we get back to chatting about how Vettel, a WDC, in a heavy social media time, is torn down for taking the knee. Oh, Vettel isn’t? Who is? Oh. Ohhhhh...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I admit, I am super confused about the British fascination with celebrity or "royalty". To care at all about some family as if they deserved to be "royal", and to call Frank Williams "sir" Frank Williams, and gush over sports stars from there like hamilton is odd to me. It would be like if the Kardashians began "knighting" people in the US and we treated those designations as valuable

But "location checks out" is not nearly as dismissive as placing the reason for criticism of hamilton as race. That ends all decent discussion at that point.

Both are unfair to those who may wish to discuss, whatever their nationality.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why? I didn’t bring it up and don’t see how it’s relevant to Lewis? Your reality TV President gives out the Presidential Medal of Freedom to sports stars. Including the US equivalent of Frank Williams, Rodger Penske. There’s no difference there at all. And I think you massively overestimate how many people care about the Royal Family here.

But, how about we get back to chatting about how Vettel, a WDC, in a heavy social media time, is torn down for taking the knee. Oh, Vettel isn’t? Who is? Oh. Ohhhhh...

Wait are you actually saying vettel isn't scrutinized like hamilton? He's judged extremely harshly for a 4 time wdc. He got plenty of deserved flack for cursing at charlie Whiting. He is called out for every mistake he makes. I know you dont actually think vettel is getting some sort of pass that hamilton doesnt.... right?

There is a difference in the two, though: one is private, quiet, stays away from attention-seeking. The other seeks out attention, then his supporters defend him when that attention isn't effusive praise.

[Adam43]

I feel we might be done with this thread because we’ve disappeared up our own rears. Surprising it got to 180 odd posts really.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I feel we might be done with this thread because we’ve disappeared up our own rears. Surprising it got to 180 odd posts really.

No no, please don't close it because of anything I've said. I'm done. I'll conclude with again saying, in reply to the thread: on track, hamilton is every bit Schumacher's equal, maybe slightly better, and the goat of this era.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

He invites it. That's the point. Drama queens irritate people. His insistence on calling over the radio

etc, etc, etc.

You only get to hear what the TV people want you to hear, when you want to hear it.

Location checks out in both directions.

[Akrapovic]

Vettel gets flack for cursing out the race director. Lewis gets flack for his shirts. These are clearly the same thing, he said, without even a hint of irony.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Greem

You only get to hear what the TV people want you to hear, when you want to hear it.

Exactly.

The broadcast director decides what driver radio we hear. There will be hours of radio during every meeting that we don't hear because it doesn't make good broadcast material.
I suspect if you selected any driver on the grid and played back their messages, you'd hear many examples of what could be described as 'whining'. The fact is, a message from Hamilton of the type being discussed here either adds to the narrative of the race, or gets a reaction from the commentators or viewers.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Exactly.

The broadcast director decides what driver radio we hear. There will be hours of radio during every meeting that we don't hear because it doesn't make good broadcast material.
I suspect if you selected any driver on the grid and played back their messages, you'd hear many examples of what could be described as 'whining'. The fact is, a message from Hamilton of the type being discussed here either adds to the narrative of the race, or gets a reaction from the commentators or viewers.

Absolutely. Current F1 TV directors are building a narrative around each driver.

[S griffin]

It seems they can be very selective over what radio they broadcast. Whether it's Grosjean complaining about his brakes or Vettel moaning about someone

[Graz]

Re Hamilton, one of the greatest yes but the GOAT? Maybe but how can you measure this? He's had by miles the best car for 7 years and counting, this has never happened. Car reliability is off the charts compared to before. There are way more races. He doesn't race anything else. He doesn't look death in the eye every time he steps in the car.

Statistically the most successful does not mean the best for the reasons above. I'd say Max, LeClerc and Ricciardo are as good.

The current top performer in every sport seems to always be the 'best ever.' Fading memory and ignoring history and development.

Just enjoy people performing at the top of their game and let all the greats be great.

I'm in my mid 40's but feel the greatest were the guys in the 30's, 50's, 60's and 70's who I didn't see. They had so much more to deal with. Jim Clarke could easily have raced into the mid 70's and what a record he would have had but the times didn't allow it.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Graz

. Car reliability is off the charts compared to before. There are way more races. He doesn't race anything else. He doesn't look death in the eye every time he steps in the car.

[...]

I'm in my mid 40's but feel the greatest were the guys in the 30's, 50's, 60's and 70's who I didn't see. They had so much more to deal with. Jim Clarke could easily have raced into the mid 70's and what a record he would have had but the times didn't allow it.

By that same point though - does that mean someone who dedicates their entire career to F1, and starts to driver in 2020, can never be regarded as the GOAT?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

By that same point though - does that mean someone who dedicates their entire career to F1, and starts to driver in 2020, can never be regarded as the GOAT?

That's not my point. I'm saying there are too many variables for anyone to be the GOAT. I've never seen Hamilton against Fangio for instance.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Graz

Statistically the most successful does not mean the best for the reasons above. I'd say Max, LeClerc and Ricciardo are as good.

In reality, or just potentially?

[Akrapovic]

lol...

[S griffin]

They certainly have it in them to beat Hamilton in the same car IMHO

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

There is a difference in the two, though: one is private, quiet, stays away from attention-seeking. The other seeks out attention, then his supporters defend him when that attention isn't effusive praise.

I would actually agree with this, although Hamilton (2011 aside due to his on track antics) was not under anywhere near this level of scrutiny in the years when he wasn't in title contention compared to the years when he has been, which also happens to have been all of the Mercedes hybrid years (which, in turn, have dragged on for so long that we've forgotten the days of 2012-13 when it was Alonso, Vettel, and Grosjean who made the media go wild, and even Mark Webber regularly made the fans more emotive than Hamilton). I also don't think talking about rEaLiTy Tv PrEsIdEnTs or anything adds anything to this thread.

I think that also having such a long period of largely unopposed success means you are the man to be shot at. Remember when Vettel was booed for his dominance throughout 2013? Imagine if that continued for another 2-3 seasons, with less and less opposition on track, all the while becoming more political - is there any wonder that people might take those shots after all? I'm sure Vettel would have been similarly controversial if he had gone down that path, but alas his star has faded and he tends to keep anything relating to off track activity away from the F1/media circus entirely. Pretending that Hamilton also does the latter or that the worthiness of his cause somehow makes it ascend beyond critique or anything is just silly and fails to address the point being made imo...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They certainly have it in them to beat Hamilton in the same car IMHO

I would agree and, as already mentioned on one of these threads, there is reason why they don't have such a chance...

...to add to this though, unlike for example Prost, who's rivals were largely in their prime when he secured 4 WDCs, those we judge as Hamilton's equals today are all unproven in WDC fights, and those from bygone days either beat him (Vettel) or gave him very close competition (Alonso, Button, Massa, Raikkonen). The days in which Verstappen, Leclerc, and possibly Ricciardo can fight for a WDC will likely come either when Hamilton's obvious car advantage has gone, or when Hamilton himself has retired, which is yet another factor that makes comparing drivers across eras a fun but totally subjective task!

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

I would actually agree with this, although Hamilton (2011 aside due to his on track antics) was not under anywhere near this level of scrutiny in the years when he wasn't in title contention compared to the years when he has been, which also happens to have been all of the Mercedes hybrid years (which, in turn, have dragged on for so long that we've forgotten the days of 2012-13 when it was Alonso, Vettel, and Grosjean who made the media go wild, and even Mark Webber regularly made the fans more emotive than Hamilton). I also don't think talking about rEaLiTy Tv PrEsIdEnTs or anything adds anything to this thread.

I think that also having such a long period of largely unopposed success means you are the man to be shot at. Remember when Vettel was booed for his dominance throughout 2013? Imagine if that continued for another 2-3 seasons, with less and less opposition on track, all the while becoming more political - is there any wonder that people might take those shots after all? I'm sure Vettel would have been similarly controversial if he had gone down that path, but alas his star has faded and he tends to keep anything relating to off track activity away from the F1/media circus entirely. Pretending that Hamilton also does the latter or that the worthiness of his cause somehow makes it ascend beyond critique or anything is just silly and fails to address the point being made imo...

Thank you. You made the point I've been trying to, you just did it better.

[chillibowl]

So to recap, winning is easy, statistics dont count, and what you sound like with an engine strapped to your back is how titles should be awarded.

I knew i was watching F1 wrong.