[BTCC] Round Five, Croft 25-26 Jun, Races 13,14&15

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

it's from a couple of season like that

if you watch some season review from the 00s or early 10s (nevermind the 90s) you notice how much more action there was I think it comes down from the vocal crowed who was moaning about driving standards but now that they clamped down on that the racing action suffers as result

Not sure about the second half of the 90s (or the end of the decade) - back ten racing was also getting more processional although I know it just from videos and haven't watched all the races of course.
Anyway, I'm not complaining about driving standards raising (they still leave a lot to be desired sometimes) because it can give the series a bit more professional outlook. But I'm not against a tough, contact-ful touring car action. If delivered properly, it can still be professional.

[porsche962fan]

Dick Bennetts critisizes the lack of overtaking

[Matt K]

Okay, now we've had 4 double-winners in 5 weekends. I can sense some "punishing solutions" for race winners.

The second race was more lively however I hoped for some great overtaking manoeuvre from Ingram for the lead.

Also a bit sad to see Sutton going around and not passing a single car.

Quite a shame Gamble had to pit, it'd looked like a bit of a bounce-back weekend.

[tux]

Lloyd couldn't win before this weekend, smashes his car up now he wins two in a row. Is it good luck to crash?

[tux]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Two rounds of Porsche Sprint... yippee.

Not great, is it?

[Evantra]

First 1-2 for Excelr8! Looking good for Tom's championship...

[porsche962fan]

smell of a boost reduction in the air

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Okay, now we've had 4 double-winners in 5 weekends. I can sense some "punishing solutions" for race winners.

The second race was more lively however I hoped for some great overtaking manoeuvre from Ingram for the lead.

Yeah agreed. If it was me I'd reverse the top 3 or 4 for race 2. But wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea!

Think Ingram would've gone for it if it wasn't his teammate.


Ahh why is it always number 12!

[Matt K]

I wouldn't like reversing grid twice to be honest, maybe two qualifying sessions to determine R1 and R2 starting grids would be better.

Shame it's 12 again, hoped for number 6 to be drawn

[BTCC frog]

I am happy with 12, Gordon Shedden deserves pole position after that drive.

I agree that the racing has not been as good as it used to be, although Donington and Brands Indy were excellent weekends. Personally, I would shake up the performance balancing to have a small amount of success ballast in qualifying to mix up the grid a little, then nothing in race one so the championship contenders can fight their way to the front, full success ballast in race two to slow down the winner and cause a long train battling for the lead, and nothing in race three so there are slower drivers at the front due to the reversed grid, but the winners of race two are actually faster and are not handicapped by extra weight.

I think this would make for particularly exciting racing, and while I prefer Formula 1 to be very much sport over show, I see the BTCC as more show than sport. And an unpopular opinion of mine is that I also like the option tyre, it really spices up the racing and while it is quite gimmicky, again, I don't mind that.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

it's from a couple of season like that

if you watch some season review from the 00s or early 10s (nevermind the 90s) you notice how much more action there was I think it comes down from the vocal crowed who was moaning about driving standards but now that they clamped down on that the racing action suffers as result

I can see how that has turned out - but the 'action' was not racing though.
Personally, I am glad that BTCC has moved on from those days.

It felt like the bigger the smash, the better people thought the 'entertainment' was. Now, we have much better racing where there is a craft to getting results, and whilst we may not have seen a high level of overtakes, we have seen a much higher standard of racing.

I don't think the racing action has suffered by clamping down on driving standards. If anything, the reverse has occurred. The racing action is now better - in that drivers actually race each other rather than try and punt each other off all the time.

[Evantra]

After a crazy F4 race, time for a nice sedate race with the little MINIs....

Very dodgy seeing the floppy marker roll across the track and take out Neate's front wing.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I can see how that has turned out - but the 'action' was not racing though.
Personally, I am glad that BTCC has moved on from those days.

It felt like the bigger the smash, the better people thought the 'entertainment' was. Now, we have much better racing where there is a craft to getting results, and whilst we may not have seen a high level of overtakes, we have seen a much higher standard of racing.

I don't think the racing action has suffered by clamping down on driving standards. If anything, the reverse has occurred. The racing action is now better - in that drivers actually race each other rather than try and punt each other off all the time.

when even one of the major team boss complains publicly about lack of overtaking you know something is really wrong

and I rather take the action packed races , if you want boring procession that's what F1 is for

the solition is to allow more "contact" but at same time less fragile cars that allow for contact without having a DNF straight away

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

when even one of the major team boss complains publicly about lack of overtaking you know something is really wrong

Shedden showed in race 2 that overtaking is possible. And overtaking does not automatically equate to good racing.
Would you rather a series where certain cars can just breeze by? I think we've seen on here many complaints about certain teams' dominance in the past.
The team boss in question was just taking his time in the spotlight to campaign for his own favour - I didn't get it as a genuine criticism of the series. Nothing is really wrong currently (IMO).

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

and I rather take the action packed races , if you want boring procession that's what F1 is for

I think the action packed races you refer to are best suited to Swaffham Raceway rather than on a circuit. A low number of overtakes does not mean it was a procession. It was a tense battle, and despite a lack of position change, still held interest throughout.

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

the solition is to allow more "contact" but at same time less fragile cars that allow for contact without having a DNF straight away

The solution is to leave things as they are - and for 'fans' to get their heads out of the past eras of BTCC and into the NGTC era of now. With close racing throughout the grid and higher standards across the field.

Why does there have to be contact at all? There will inevitably be some contact in touring car racing, but it doesn't have to be there to provide the entertainment.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Shedden showed in race 2 that overtaking is possible. And overtaking does not automatically equate to good racing.
Would you rather a series where certain cars can just breeze by? I think we've seen on here many complaints about certain teams' dominance in the past.
The team boss in question was just taking his time in the spotlight to campaign for his own favour - I didn't get it as a genuine criticism of the series. Nothing is really wrong currently (IMO).

Shedden passing a bunch of much slower cars doesn't prove anything, the major team boss has a point, it's not just him who thinks that

I think the action packed races you refer to are best suited to Swaffham Raceway rather than on a circuit. A low number of overtakes does not mean it was a procession. It was a tense battle, and despite a lack of position change, still held interest throughout.

again go watch F1 if you want that, this is TOURING cars, it's supposed to be different and more (light) contact sport, otherwise what's the freaking point of its existence in the first place if you have F1, GTs etc

The solution is to leave things as they are - and for 'fans' to get their heads out of the past eras of BTCC and into the NGTC era of now. With close racing throughout the grid and higher standards across the field.

Why does there have to be contact at all? There will inevitably be some contact in touring car racing, but it doesn't have to be there to provide the entertainment.

No

the solution is to make more contact proof cars like the BTC and Super tourers were (when NGTC will be phased out) and to loosen up the rules a bit, now it's like they overregulate everything to death like Brussels bureaucrats do

[GT6]

two good races so far but hoping race 3 will be better

[porsche962fan]

Jelley also critisized difficult overtaking

[porsche962fan]

Congrats to Shedden for bouncing back

Sutton the victim of NGTC fragility

Tingram leads Cook by 3 points

[GT6]

Championship getting closer again, race three not really that great but pleased for sheddon

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Jelley also critisized difficult overtaking

Not sure it'll be better at Knockhill!

[JDMROB]

Another boring 3 races in my opinion.

Cars are too big, too fragile and too equal.

Matt Neal said before the season started that it was going to be like World touring cars this year with processional races and he was right.

A move has to be 100% on otherwise the slightest wrong bit of contact is going to break a tie rod and its weekend ruined. The drivers are fearful of this and it becomes not worth the risk of making a move for the sake of 2 points difference.

Something does need to be done as the target audience won't find it exciting. Fact.

[AJD]

Originally Posted by JDMROB

Another boring 3 races in my opinion.

Cars are too big, too fragile and too equal.

Matt Neal said before the season started that it was going to be like World touring cars this year with processional races and he was right.

A move has to be 100% on otherwise the slightest wrong bit of contact is going to break a tie rod and its weekend ruined. The drivers are fearful of this and it becomes not worth the risk of making a move for the sake of 2 points difference.

Something does need to be done as the target audience won't find it exciting. Fact.

Equal is good though right? You want the races to be won by the driver that puts in the best performance on the day, not the same team winning each race weekend because they've built the best car.

I do agree the racing isn't at its usual excitement level at times mind.

I wasn't a fan of success ballast however I don't think the hybrid system and the way it's being used as an alternative to ballast is working as well as they thought it would. I reckon they thought the hybrid system would provide more overtaking opportunities but to me and what I watched today it seems to help the driver defending more than anything else.

It's one of those things though. You have to give it a fair crack before you go making knee jerk reactions and changing stuff. Whether you're on board or not with hybrid it's here to stay.

It just needs tweaking im sure.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by AJD

It just needs tweaking im sure.

it needs to be axed , Matt Neal was right just a waste of time and money and it doesn't bring any extra interest from manufacturers or spectators , it's just mostly stupid virtue signalling to say "hey look we go green, isn't that great?"

but that isn't the main problem by far, it's the mis design of NGTC , they had the chance to remedy this when they swtiched to RML parts but they didn't use it

[AJD]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

it needs to be axed , Matt Neal was right just a waste of time and money and it doesn't bring any extra interest from manufacturers or spectators , it's just mostly stupid virtue signalling to say "hey look we go green, isn't that great?"

but that isn't the main problem by far, it's the mis design of NGTC , they had the chance to remedy this when they swtiched to RML parts but they didn't use it

So teams have wasted all this time and money and we should axe it after 15 rounds? Matt Neal knew what he was taking his team into if he didn't like it he was as entitled as anyone else to walk away.

I'm by no means saying I like it or that it's anywhere near perfect but this is what they've chosen to do with the series.

As for it not bringing in any extra interest from outside again it's 15 races old. If it was my company and my money looking to get involved I'd certainly be holding back to guage how it's going before ploughing my hard earned money into a team. It needs time. Just like NGTC needed time. It's the healthiest grids we've seen since the rules came in. Maybe not the quality throughout the field we would all like to see but it's healthy none the less.

[crmalcolm]

Many drivers and team managers on the grid have commented that financial backing is easier to obtain from some sources because BTCC is hybrid.

The nature of the cars has pushed up the standard of driving in the series.

Yes, there are improvements to come in the application of HEMS, and we have already seen tweaks during the season.

Many bemoaned the use of option tyres and ballast. The performance is now all in the hands of the drivers, and the quality in the field is deep. So why be surprised when overtaking is difficult?

Overtaking is hard - so it should be. But the best drivers have, and do, find a way to overtake. The racing is smarter now - why does it need to be dumbed down?