Chassis Builders, Whatever Happened To...

[GP Racer]

I was just curious to know what became of Falcon chassis?

They are still listed on the IRL web-site, with a glowing report about the company, but the companies own web-site is gone. Are they officially out of business? Any chance that they may still get into the game? Anyone have any pics of one? I've heard, but I'm not sure, that there chassis wasn't done in time for the 2003 season, and as a result, lost team support.

Also what happened to Riley-Scott chassis? Just to slow? I heard rumors about Lola getting involved...?

[rustyfan]

I think the Falcon was just a poor experimental chassis that didn't make the cut, used as an excuse to keep Lola out when they first voiced their interest a couple of years back.

[Tim Northcutt]

To GP Racer:

The way I understood it...

1. The MK Falcon (project started by Mike Kranefuss, a former head of Ford's racing projets in the early 1990s) program was behind in development due to funding, and by the time they got a "show car" or a reasonable facsimile actually built, teams had already made their choices for G-Force or Dallara cars for 2003....

Thus there were no "customers" out there to pay up front for the building of the first race-capable chassis.....kind of a "Chicken or the Egg" explanation, but that's the way I understand the story....

Supposedly, there is a company or a maker in Europe that bought whatever Kranefuss and the MK Falcon people had put together as far as the "show Car," the pland and tech drawings, etc....

I remember this being discussed in a thread last summer....can't remember who allegedly bought this info and material from MK though....

Maybe the Moderators or regulars on this site can help us with that...

2. As you know the Riley & Scott was the "Third Builder" in the early years of the series....when the new cars were unveiled, thee were rules concerning changes to the original cars entered...I believe they had to wait a year or so before making significant changes to the chassis....the R&S was a high-downforce chassis that did extremely well in its first two races (Orlando & Lazier won with it at Phoenix, I believe), but due to its aero characteristics, teams chose not to go with it at Indy, with the exception of the "factory" car driven by Eliseo Salazar...

On the final practice day before Pole Day at Indy, Salazar had the fatest time posted that month....but there was one-half tweak too far to get more speed out of it in Sat. a.m. practice before the Pole Runs, and the car was wrecked....the back-up car did not get up to speed, and I believe it did not make the race...

That hard shot set the tone for it's reamining years of IRL competition....the teams that did run the chassis were Shoestring operations that could not get the car up to competitive speed on their budgets....

Thus the competitiors ultimately went with the G-Force or Dallara, and the R&S was no longer being sought by customers....

In a way it was kind of like the situation that Infiniti faced in the early years....no one raced the engine until Cheever stepped up and said "I'll be your test team and your 'factory' team" so to speak to develop the engine...

Without Cheever, the Infiniti engine would have vanished completely...

The R&S chassis did not have a customer or someone like Cheever to step up and say "I'll be the test/factory operation" for you, and thus they stopped producing the car....

Side Item: This is a brief, nutshell synopsis of the situation the way I understood it....

The R&S chassis was a good one....it just never really got the chance to be tweaked and refined by a good team or operation that could partner with R&S and stick with it as a commitment to developing the car....

BIG-TIME NOTE ON IRL CHASSIS......

Dome (in Japan) HAS an IRL Specs chassis and wanted to be that third make in the series, but the IRL chose MK Falcon instead (maybe because MK Falcon was "American-based" or Kranefuss had the connections)...I don't know....

But Dome even says on their website that they WANT to race in the IRL, they have had talks periodically with league officials and they want to seek approvals to build & sell cars to potential customers in the Series at some point...

Dome builds a superb Le Mans-rules sportscar prototype, and I feel they would be quite competitive as a chassis builder in the IRL....

Maybe the whole thing with CART being up in the air, and if the competing series would have died, that Lola could come to race in the IRL has held up the chance for Dome to be involved....

I don't know.....

But a third option for an IRL chassis is definitely on the horizon...and in my eyes, that horizon is on the other side of the Pacific...and not necessarily the Atlantic, unless OWRS can't make a go of it for whatever reason....


Hope this helps

[GP Racer]

Thanks Tim, that certainly helped.

So, theoretically, the Falcon chassis is not completely dead, and maybe seen again somewhere down the line. Maybe thats why the company is still shown on the Indy web-site. Also the Dome chassis is interesting, and I have seen there successful sportcar prototypes race. Its interesting, and somewhat admirable to try and support an America manufacturer, if thats what TG did, than to go with a foreign producer. But times aren't to good right now, and if Dome is ready, I say bring them in. I guess they will need a team to step forward and give them a shot.

I think what makes F1 so interesting is all of the different chassis and engine producers they have. No two manufacturer's are alike. So I say the more the merrier, for the IRL also. The competition between manufacturers, will keep the competition on the track interesting to fans.

Tim, do you have Domes web address? Are there any pictures on it?

[gttouring]

wow Dome has an IRL chassis?! tht was news to me- It would be wicked killer if they could modify it for Champ cars- especially after the series has got a good shot in the arm.
Lola Dome Raynard(or what's left of them) this would be really cool.
of course Gforce, Dome, Dallara would be a nice mix too,
or a 4 wide chassis battle with MK falcon- TG should really help out and diversify his series, but then why would he do anything remotely interesting to competition, bunched up cars seem to be exciting but where is the INDY innovation and tech?

i didn't mean to start a fight, so don't read too much into it, simply where is INDY's famed diversity and Innovations, and who is responsable for keeping it out or not?

[GP Racer]

I think Tim touched on the problem gt.

You need teams willing to take a shot with a new chassis design. They need to be wealthy enough to be able to stick with it, and develop it. Right now, there doesn't seem to be enough teams to keep on going with builders that they know, like Dallara and G-Force, let alone start supporting a new builder.

I think as the economy gets better, which it thankfully is, we'll see more teams able to take some chances on new designs and technology. Also the IRL road racing scenario for 2005, may spur some teams to look for new manufacturer's, to work with.

As for Champ Cars, its going to be all Lola, unfortunately. Reynard is dead. Really its becoming a spec series, with no choice in anything, and with there money woes, your unlikely to see any innovations coming down the pike for quite sometime over there.

[Tim Northcutt]

Go to Mulsanne Mike's site....the "Mulsannes Corner" site for those who do not surf the sportscar forum....

In the Links Section, under the section for chassis builders, there is a link for Dome....

Click on their IRL window that is on the site and read up on their thoughts (their desire) to have achassis in the IRL....

Can't remember if there are pics....

Historical Note:

Champ Car teams in either series (old CART/now OWRS or IRL) have never had any patience with something that didn't show promise and versatility right out of the box....

In 1983, mario Andretti raced a new Lola chassis at Indy and in the CART schedule and by June he was screaming for a March chassis....

His team did not give in, and the subsequent Lola car that he got in 1984 and 1985 was a dominant chassis....

Lola and the team needed to shake a few bugs out....Mario wanted to WIN....NOW....not a year from NOW....

and there are dozens of other examples of this...

Hell...Hemelgarn and Buddy Lazier WON at Phoenix in the R&S...went from "worst to first" on the grid in the chassis' second race.....but dumped it completely prior to Indianapolis six weeks later....probably after a brief test at IMS...

Go Figure...

[shiny side up!]

Here are 2 old threads discussing the Falcon chassis effort...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...Falcon+Chassis

And...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...Falcon+Chassis

Enjoy!

[gttouring]

it seems DOME has removed any hints of the IRL wish from their site. intersetingly enough there is an Oval series in Japan (proposed maybe) and Dome had a chassis built for that.http://www.dome.co.jp/e/museum/car_m/car_m33a.html
long sleek more CHampcar/F1 than an IRL car

the "watercart racer" is very cool, a sit down like a formula car, Jetski- that's cool/ even the bobsliegh is very innovative compared to what i have been seeing recently on SPeed Channel

[Teretonga]

Lola and Dome have collaborated on a new F3 chassis to be run in Europe this season with a works supported team. If Dome got an IRL slot would Lola support them and work with them in the same way as a back door entry to the IRL. It hardly seems as though they would compete with them, given the existing level of collaboration. Lola could contribute alot if information to a combined project, even if it was in Dome's name...

[jhansen]

What ever happened to March??

[gttouring]

yeah what did happen to them? and Swift they used to make a champcar chassis and other assorted single seaters other than atlantics where have they gone?

[GP Racer]

Well, I still see very recent Swift chassis for sale, the 008 and the .14A, and also Van Diemen chassis are still around and being used.

But I havn't seen anything about the March chassis in along time. Mario drove them I believe, and I remember them being a beautiful car, back in the day. I don't believe they were very successful though.

[mountainstar]

Someone wrote a book about the fall of March and several articles have been written about it including a great one by Joe Scazlo(SCI Magazine). So if you are interested there are plenty of materials out there about March's story. A lot of good business lessons can be learned from March's downfall.

March died for good in early 1993.

Van Diemen is alive and well.

Swift in california I think makes most of it's money renting it's windtunnel rather than making racecars.

Reynard is dead. All of the various bits sold off. Zytek has the rights to the FNippon chassis. Reynard failed to learn any lessons from March's problems and repeated the same mistakes to it's final destruction.

Falcon is very dead. All the bits sold off. You will never see this car again. They never really had a workable chassis anyway.

[Hazza]

Reynard's Champ Car assets are now owned by Van Diemen, but they couldn't do anything because
A) teams couldn't get the chasis to work
B) CART couldn't morally boost the performance as the Lolas cost far more than the Reynards and they didn't want to mess with 75% of their teams.

[Tim Northcutt]

Note:


The March chassis was the chassis of choice through most of the 1980s...very fast and competitive....

I remember when the Whittington Bros. brought it to Indy as the first team to race the chassis in Champ Cars....they apparently were the early North American distributors of the March....

a solid race car....to bad it has gone away....